Cowboy wrote:

I follow this "specific religious doctrine" you speak of. And it teaches us not to judge others. Jesus has nothing to do with "religion". Religion is a "belief" in something. A belief leaves room for doubt and or it not being true. Jesus is about the truth and the only truth.

Well, like I say, your religion teaches you to judge others relentlessly with no possible exceptions. It's a truly nasty religion. It's should be outlawed as hate speech, IMHO.

CeriseRose wrote:

And your speech wouldn't be labeled as "hate speech???"

Well, of course it's not hate speech. How could it be?

I'm not accusing anyone of being a sinner or turning against God or anything even remotely like that.

All I do is point out how a particular mythological picture of God portrays a God who hates heathens and non-believers. I'm simply rejecting that view as being self-contradictory of a God who is supposed to be all-loving and all-merciful and all-wise

The story portrays a God who loses the vast majority of souls he creates to a demonic fallen angel.

A God who solves all of his problems using violent gory methods.

A God who doesn't communicate with his creation very well at all.

A God who is contradictory in his commandments telling people one minute "Thou shalt not kill" and then directing them to do just that the next minute.

A God who is supposedly unchanging but changes his covenant with mankind via hearsay rumors and gossip about a mortal man who didn't even have any socially recognized authority. And then he will supposedly punish all those who don't believe in these hearsay rumors?

Now the Christians want to demand that these stories represent the "only true word of God"?

I object.

Is that "hate speech"?

Moreover, I give perfectly sound and sane possible alternative scenarios that even retain dignity and respect for the man named Jesus.

To begin with I reject the entire Old Testament as mere man-made mythology. Christians should love that one since the teachings in the Old Testament are basically the foundation of Islam and if adhered to without the New Testament, and the teaching of Jesus, could indeed lead to support for murdering heathens and infidels, and their wives and children with no mercy in the name of God.

The reason that most Christians love Jesus so much is precisely because he rejected all that stuff and replaced it with brotherly love, forgiveness, and being non-judgmental of others.

I suggest that Jesus was most likely a wise man who was educated in the ways of Mahayana Buddhism and taught brotherly love from that pantheistic perspective. What you do to your brother you do to me.

Jesus did not support the violence of the Old Testament, and he even referred to the Torah as "Your Law" when speaking with the Pharisees, not "My Law".

Jesus was eventually crucified for his views and for opposing the Pharisees. And then the rumors started. One of the rumors was that he might have been "The Christ" that was supposedly prophesied to become the King of the Jews. But obviously he never became king. So that prophecy was never fulfilled anyway.

Therefore, my suggestion that he was actually a mortal man who taught against the violence of the Torah holds more value, IMHO.

Where's there any hate speech in that?

Is it your view that anyone who questions the divinity of Jesus is spreading "hate speech"?

That's ridiculous.

Everything that I have to say about Jesus is extremely respectable.

I can't un-nail Jesus from the cross, but I can un-nail him from the Old Testament where the Christians have ultimately crucified him.

Once Jesus has been freed from the stigma of the Old Testament, he become a true messenger of love. He cannot be used to support bigotry of any kind. Not religious bigotry, not bigotry against same gender love, nothing.

The Jesus I offer is a man of PURE LOVE.

And there is nothing disrespectful in my views.

I am not accusing anyone of "Turning away from God", nor am I demanding that all men are sinners. On the contrary, I leave everyone's relationship with god to him, or her.

I don't even renounce Christianity as a "personal walk with Jesus". I fully support the New Age Christianity that renounces a verbatim fundamentalist approach to dogma.

In fact, my own personal views of Jesus could qualify as a "New Age" form of "Christianity" in that sense. Although, I will be the first to confess that the very idea of using the term "Christ" would be an oxymoron since I renounce that particular rumor.

But still, there is nothing at all hateful in my views.

All I'm basically doing is rejecting the hardcore proselytizers who demand that only the biblical interpretation of Jesus can be true, and that Jesus was "The Christ", he died to pay for the sins of man, he was the only begotten son of the God of the Old Testament. He is the sacrificial lamb of a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices.

I renounce all of that.

Is that "hate speech".

I don't think so.

It's just a far more loving and sane view of who Jesus was.

My views could ultimately become the foundation of a new religion that has every bit as much merit as Christianity. They are totally respectable and even support the actual moral values that Jesus had taught since they are being recognized as the same truths that had already been taught by men like Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, and countless others who taught many years before Jesus ever walked on the face of planet Earth.

It's a totally respectable view.

Well, of course it's not hate speech. How could it be?

I'm not accusing anyone of being a sinner or turning against God or anything even remotely like that.

All I do is point out how a particular mythological picture of God portrays a God who hates heathens and non-believers. I'm simply rejecting that view as being self-contradictory of a God who is supposed to be all-loving and all-merciful and all-wise

The story portrays a God who loses the vast majority of souls he creates to a demonic fallen angel.

A God who solves all of his problems using violent gory methods.

A God who doesn't communicate with his creation very well at all.

A God who is contradictory in his commandments telling people one minute "Thou shalt not kill" and then directing them to do just that the next minute.

A God who is supposedly unchanging but changes his covenant with mankind via hearsay rumors and gossip about a mortal man who didn't even have any socially recognized authority. And then he will supposedly punish all those who don't believe in these hearsay rumors?

Now the Christians want to demand that these stories represent the "only true word of God"?

I object.

Is that "hate speech"?

Moreover, I give perfectly sound and sane possible alternative scenarios that even retain dignity and respect for the man named Jesus.

To begin with I reject the entire Old Testament as mere man-made mythology. Christians should love that one since the teachings in the Old Testament are basically the foundation of Islam and if adhered to without the New Testament, and the teaching of Jesus, could indeed lead to support for murdering heathens and infidels, and their wives and children with no mercy in the name of God.

The reason that most Christians love Jesus so much is precisely because he rejected all that stuff and replaced it with brotherly love, forgiveness, and being non-judgmental of others.

I suggest that Jesus was most likely a wise man who was educated in the ways of Mahayana Buddhism and taught brotherly love from that pantheistic perspective. What you do to your brother you do to me.

Jesus did not support the violence of the Old Testament, and he even referred to the Torah as "Your Law" when speaking with the Pharisees, not "My Law".

Jesus was eventually crucified for his views and for opposing the Pharisees. And then the rumors started. One of the rumors was that he might have been "The Christ" that was supposedly prophesied to become the King of the Jews. But obviously he never became king. So that prophecy was never fulfilled anyway.

Therefore, my suggestion that he was actually a mortal man who taught against the violence of the Torah holds more value, IMHO.

Where's there any hate speech in that?

Is it your view that anyone who questions the divinity of Jesus is spreading "hate speech"?

That's ridiculous.

Everything that I have to say about Jesus is extremely respectable.

I can't un-nail Jesus from the cross, but I can un-nail him from the Old Testament where the Christians have ultimately crucified him.

Once Jesus has been freed from the stigma of the Old Testament, he become a true messenger of love. He cannot be used to support bigotry of any kind. Not religious bigotry, not bigotry against same gender love, nothing.

The Jesus I offer is a man of PURE LOVE.

And there is nothing disrespectful in my views.

I am not accusing anyone of "Turning away from God", nor am I demanding that all men are sinners. On the contrary, I leave everyone's relationship with god to him, or her.

I don't even renounce Christianity as a "personal walk with Jesus". I fully support the New Age Christianity that renounces a verbatim fundamentalist approach to dogma.

In fact, my own personal views of Jesus could qualify as a "New Age" form of "Christianity" in that sense. Although, I will be the first to confess that the very idea of using the term "Christ" would be an oxymoron since I renounce that particular rumor.

But still, there is nothing at all hateful in my views.

All I'm basically doing is rejecting the hardcore proselytizers who demand that only the biblical interpretation of Jesus can be true, and that Jesus was "The Christ", he died to pay for the sins of man, he was the only begotten son of the God of the Old Testament. He is the sacrificial lamb of a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices.

I renounce all of that.

Is that "hate speech".

I don't think so.

It's just a far more loving and sane view of who Jesus was.

My views could ultimately become the foundation of a new religion that has every bit as much merit as Christianity. They are totally respectable and even support the actual moral values that Jesus had taught since they are being recognized as the same truths that had already been taught by men like Buddha, Confucius, Lao Tzu, and countless others who taught many years before Jesus ever walked on the face of planet Earth.

It's a totally respectable view.

Cowboy wrote:

One more time, where is the hatred? Where is anything foul? Where is this hatred you speak of?

God hates no one. Does a parent hate their children if they do no feel the child has deserved a great prize, reward, and or gift? Does a parent hate their child if the parent continues to provide for the child and the child continues to be disobedient and or even deny them as their parent?

Where exactly is the hatred? God offers eternal life in paradise for eternity, all you have to do is love God in the first place. Nothing more require, heaven is merely a reward for your obedience and love to our father. Heaven can not be bought or stolen. So you either do as God has set out before us and achieve this reward, or just cease to exist. Hell was not made for man, that is why it is destroyed in the end of times and Satan and his minions are cast into the lake of fire. There is no eternal torment or punishment. Again you either achieve eternal life in heaven with God or you cease to exist.

One more time, where is the hatred? Where is anything foul? Where is this hatred you speak of?

In terms of the fables the hatred is clear in the Old Testament. God hates heathens. And a "heathen" is defined as anyone who refuses to believe that the authors of the Old Testament are speaking for God.

In other words, if you love God (your creator) yet you reject the teachings of the Hebrew fables as being "not of God", then according to the authors of the Old Testament you are worshiping a 'false god' and rejecting your true creator and you are therefore a "heathen" and God hates heathens.

Now, when you bring this into Christianity, it comes automatically with the territory, because the claim of Christianity is that Jesus represents the "Son" of this very same heathen-hating God.

It's not good enough for the Christians for me to say that I accept the moral teachings of Jesus, or that I agree with them, or anything along those lines.

As far as the Christians are concerned, I MUST ACKNOWLEDGE that Jesus is the only begotten son of the God of the Old Testament who was sent as a sacrificial lamb on my behalf to pay for my sins through his blood sacrifice at the evil hands of man.

I reject that whole notion. Therefore according to Christians I'm a 'heathen' because I reject the divinity of Jesus, and therefore I reject "Our Father" as you put it. That very notion in and of itself is a form of extreme hatred. Because you are passing judgment on me to be rejecting "Our Father" simply because I don't buy into your religious doctrines and interpretations of rumors.

Moreover, not only would I need to accept Jesus as the SON of the God of Abraham who was the sacrificial lamb who died to pay for my sins, but I MUST ALSO acknowledge that the Old Testament represents the "Word of God" including the idea that God hates homosexuality, etc.

In other words, I can't even become a Christian unless I'm willing to become a bigot in the name of Jesus as "The Christ of the Jews".

I need to acknowledge the whole damn thing before the Christians will accept that I have accepted "Our Father".

All of that is extremism that ultimately ends up in the belittling (and thus the hating) of anyone who refuses to buy into the whole religion shebang.

How can you possible expect me to believe that you could respect me whilst you constantly hold out the demand that I am rejecting "Our Father".

That's an extremely hateful accusation to make of me. I don't whether you think so or not. When you tell someone that they are rejecting God if they don't buy into your religious beliefs you are basically telling them, "I can't possible have any respect for you as long as you continue to chose to rebel against 'Our Father'."

It's an insult to judge someone else's relationship with God, especially if they have already TOLD YOU on many occasions that they are indeed a spiritual person. All you're basically doing is slapping them in the face, calling them a liar, and insisting that until they convert to Christianity and support all of it's bigotry in the name of Jesus "The Christ Almighty" they may as well be Satan himself.

It's an extreme insult to anyone who doesn't believe the Christian view of things.

My view of the Old Testament as total mythology, the New Testament as totally over-zealous rumors, and of Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist, if a perfect valid and respectable view.

Plus, I'm not even an atheist too boot!

I firmly believe in the possibility of Eastern Mysticism which can indeed be a very beautiful picture of God.

Therefore to continually accuse me of rejecting "Our Father" simply because I reject a particular version of an ancient myth is an insult to me. You're basically suggesting that I'm "choosing" to reject "Our Creator" when nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, it's even wrong to suggest that atheists are "rejecting" a creator, they are simply being honest about the fact that they see no reason to believe in one, which is not even close to being the same thing as 'rejecting' one.

Christian proselytizing of their view of ancient scriptures and demanding that everyone else's views are necessarily wrong, is not only grossly arrogant and ignorant, but it is extremely hateful as well. It's hateful because it's basically insulting everyone else's views and demanding that everyone who rejects "Christianity" is rejecting God.

My view of Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist who actually rejected the teachings of the Torah is every bit as valid and respectable as the Christian view of the same historical writings.

Therefore to even remotely suggest that my views could be seen as 'rejection of God' is indeed a very hateful stance to take.

If you want to be a loving person you must embrace my views as being just as reasonable, sincere and honest as the Christian views. And can in no way take my views to imply that I am in any way "rejecting any God".

It's just like Zeus to a Christian. Are you guilty of "rejecting Zeus"? Of course not, you simply don't believe that Zeus was anything more than an ancient man-made myth.

Well, that's the same with me. I don't believe that the God of the Old Testament is anything more than a man-made myth.

And therefore Jesus could not possibly have been the son of that God, nor the sacrificial lamb of that God.

So that's my stance. It's honorable, respectable, and deserves to be fully recognized and respected for what it is. Jesus was not the blood sacrifice of some hateful God who hates heathens.

That's my view.

And I'm not going to support bigotry against same-gender couples in the name of Jesus "The Christ of the Jews".

It's never going to happen.

Neither am I going to support religious bigotry in any way in the name of Jesus.

I'll support the moral teachings of Jesus and gladly point out that these are the very same moral teachings that have been taught by Eastern Mystics for eons, even before Jesus was ever born.

But I'll never support religious bigotry and the judging of non-Christians and Atheists to be "rejecting God".

Those are hateful judgments that have no place in human society, IMHO.

If someone wants to believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of the God of the Old Testament for their own personal religious views, then more power to them!

I can accept that.

But if they are going to try to PUSH this onto me as some sort of 'absolute truth' then they are in for some serious resistance.

And that's what you people are experiencing here. Serious resistance.

I will never condone using Jesus to judge others, or to pull selected bigotries from the Old Testament to hold over the heads of others.

If you want to worship Jesus as God, be my guest. Live the life that you believe is right according to that belief. But quit accusing non-believers of "rejecting God", just because they don't buy into the same conclusions you've accepted.

Until you can acknowledge to me that my view of Jesus as a Mahayana Buddhist holds every bit as much merit as your belief in the Hebrew rumors, then we'll forever be at odds, because ultimately you can never respect my beliefs, yet you demand that I accept yours completely to the point of even making them my own.

That's never gonna happen. Ever.

In other words, if you love God (your creator) yet you reject the teachings of the Hebrew fables as being "not of God", then according to the authors of the Old Testament you are worshiping a 'false god' and rejecting your true creator and you are therefore a "heathen" and God hates heathens.

And finally Hatred! That's my personal favorite! If you want hatred then just look around the forum here! When is the last time you saw someone talking about the bible or the christian God in an attempt to better understand?

I've seen people try and come up with their own version of God,Dis-prove God's existence, and call Christians stupid. I'm sure there's a legitimate post someplace I just don't have the patience to look for it.

This is the closest to an answer I've found reading this thread. Let's go with it.

Now, let's logically look at it from my standpoint: God hates no one, I've heard this a lot and still find it hard to believe. If God hates no one does that mean he deliberately sticks people in terrible positions from birth? Take for example being born in Africa, born essentially to starve and eventually die from disease or malnutrition. With this example in mind you can see from a logical stand that it is difficult for me to believe if a God does exist that he truly cares about humanity.

And that isn't just an isolated example either, people are born into poverty and hunger here in the United States just the same. They are born into shambles in parts of China, born into segregation if parts of the Middle East, and born into hatred in multiple places around the world. So, if God does exist, and it truly cares like you say it does...why are millions of people born into a tragic fate? Do they not believe enough? Or is God simply picking humanity off one by one?

Personally, this is the argument I have with God. This is the illogical side of religion that I see. This is usually the part where I'm told that I need some Jesus in my life as well.

Either way, I just want to know what makes you think that from the billions upon billions of perfect living creatures that God cares?

Cowboy wrote:

And the "hebrew fables, hearsay rumours, ect" don't work my friend. I'll explain why.

Say God revealed himself in a physical form to the whole world today. Just showed his face down from the clouds and spoke with a voice of thunder. EVERYONE would then believe. But that's not the point. In say 50 - 100 years from now that incident will have then became hearsay rumours and would hold no merit just as you and other claim the bible as. For it not to be fables or hearsay rumours God would have to reveal himself EVERY generation, every 100 years or so.

To better understand what? The Christian view of Hebrew writings?

That's what the "Christian Forums" are for. People who are interesting in believing on faith that the Bible is the "Word of God".

Those of us who are convinced that the Bible cannot possibly be the "word of God" are not interested in trying to "better understand it". We can already see it's folly and how it ultimately amounts to nothing more than the opinions of mortal men who claim to speak for a God.

The problem with many Christians seems to be that they view 'non-belief' as "hatred against their religion". But that's an absurd notion. To recognize that the Bible cannot possibly be the word of any all-wise all-powerful God does not constitute 'hatred' just because some Christians may find it to be "offensive".

The bottom line is that it's perfectly reasonable and intelligent to question the Bible and even renounce altogether as the word of any "God".

That, my friend, is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. There's no point in "trying to understand it" because there's nothing to understand other than the fact that it's a much of superstitious folklore.

That's a very valid view.



There are many legitimate posts that show why the Bible cannot be the word of any "all-wise" God. In fact, a large part of that arrangement rests on the very observation that many things that are in the bible are extremely unwise (i.e. stupid). That's a valid observation.

To then take that to mean that Christians are stupid for believing in the Bible is falsehood. That's an argument that Christians often use just to claim "foul" when people point out why the biblical stories can't possibly be "Wise".

They even often accuse the non-believer by saying things like, "Who are you to judge what WISE?"

Well, duh.

If I read a story and judge it to be unwise, then I'm certainly not going to be prepared to believe that it represents the word of an "all-wise" good. Of course I need to judge whether or not it is "wise" that's part of the process of deciding whether or not I feel that it's "wise" to accept that it's the word of an all-wise God.

So there are many valid reasons why humans reject the Bible and those reasons are valid. And to explain WHY they reject these ancient myths is indeed a valid part of a discussion on religion.

If you want to have a "Bible Study Class" where everyone is trying their best to support the Bible as the word of God, and sweep everything under the carpet that doesn't support that view, then you need to be discussing that will other people who seek the same goal.

In the meantime, some people would prefer to be honest about how they feel about a particular religious doctrine, mythology, or whatever. And that, my friend, does not constitute "hatred".

To recognize that Jesus may have very well been a mortal man just like the rest of us, is not a hateful thing to consider. Not in the least.

And besides all that Abrakadabra (Who in case you dint know evolves from abra) How do you explain these threads? I mean if they are not hatefullWere they really Hung like a Horse in Bible?

This christmas!

How Religion Is Killing Our Most Vulnerable Youth

Religious pictures from the 1930's

Most Bizarre Bible Quotes

Transgender woman says DMV clerk warned of hell

hysterical rhetoric

Well, seeing since I'm not the author of any of those threads I don't feel obligated to explain them.

I haven't even read some of them.

I don't condone the behavior of all individuals, whether they be religious or not.

I can only speak for myself. I personally have very sound and rational reasons for rejecting the idea that the Old Testament is the "word of God" and that Jesus was the son of that God.

Those are valid concerns.

Christians strongly proselytize the idea the the Bible is the "Word of God", and I flatly reject that notion.

All I request is that Christians give a little respect to anyone and everyone who rejects the Bible as the "Word of God".

Rejecting the Bible as the "Word of God" is a valid thing to do.

To accuse such people of 'turning against god' or anything else is a very hateful thing to do. It's also an ignorant thing to do.

Therefore ShiningArmour, I have nothing against any "Christians" who don't do that. But at the same time I have neither respect nor sympathy for the ones who do.

If you can recognize that my choice to reject the Bible as the "Word of God" is a sound and rational choice, then we have no argument.

On the other hand, if you're going to argue otherwise, then you're going to need your shining armour because you'll be in for one hell of a battle. And if you scream "Foul" when you hear my reasons why I reject the Bible as the "Word of God" then you're just being truly obnoxious because that the very HEART of the debate.

OK first off I've choosen to simply scroll to the bottom of the page and reply to the main idea of this thread. That being, "Does God really care?"

I don't know how to use the "Quote" feature so I'm just going to attempt to answer your question as best I can and see where it goes. (Idiots not withstanding)

In this last post you state that people are born into negative circumstances. Such as but not limited to "Poverty" "Segregation" and "Hatred"

Now these are all different circumstances!

First lets look at the "Poverty" Yes they are born into poverty. But God in his infinite wisdom leaves them a way out through charity. You see God does not micro manage anyone's life. It says "He provides for the birds of the air" It does NOT say "He pours grain in their nest" The money is out there someplace and if not the money then the food will be there somewhere.

Now about segregation. Yes this is wrong. But it's not really that big of a deal. Starvation will kill you. Segregation as far as I know wont. Now I'm a very ignorant person so I'm probably wrong about segregation.

And finally Hatred! That's my personal favorite! If you want hatred then just look around the forum here! When is the last time you saw someone talking about the bible or the christian God in an attempt to better understand?
I've seen people try and come up with their own version of God,Dis-prove God's existence, and call Christians stupid. I'm sure there's a legitimate post someplace I just don't have the patience to look for it.

In closing the point I'm trying to make here is God leaves a way out. There's always provision someplace. You need only look for it! And yes people are born into bad circumstances. They have been from the start. The children of Israel were made to build stuff for pharaoh. But after several years God sends Moses to lead them out. Hence the provision.
I was hungry at work and only had a few bucks on me. I prayed and the food truck which came every day had a chicken sandwich waiting for me. I had exactly one more dollar than was needed.

And finally I've been unemployed for some time now so I buy lottery tickets to at least try for some spending cash. I prayed I would win "Powerball" And I did fifteen dollars. Now if I was born into poverty Powerball could be my provision if God so choose. I could also get a job!

I hope this helped in answering your question about God. Now I know this place is swarming with atheists and morons so...Let the bashing commence!

*lol* One hell of a debate. *lol* OK abra. I have no problem with you disagreeing. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want.

I always say it's up to the individual.

I think the your argument that Jesus was not the son of God and the Bible is not the word of God is a subject for another thread. If you want to make it into a thread you can! And I'm sure people will debate you.

And finally Hatred! That's my personal favorite! If you want hatred then just look around the forum here! When is the last time you saw someone talking about the bible or the christian God in an attempt to better understand?
I've seen people try and come up with their own version of God,Dis-prove God's existence, and call Christians stupid. I'm sure there's a legitimate post someplace I just don't have the patience to look for it.

MsHarmony wrote:

I happen to think the fundamental difference between believers and non believers is the 'center' of their thinking

for non believers, the question is usually one where MAN is the center of the universe and God is there to serve and oblige

for believers, the question is usually one where GOD is the center of life, and man is there to serve