God made all life with the ability to adapt to changing environments. God didn't make hundreds of breeds of dogs and house cats, we did. God simply had to create the mechanism to allow creatures to change and adapt to their environment.

Everything God created was perfect and everything was kept that way by God's will. After Adam and Eve fell, God no longer sustained the perfection of the universe. The universe is no longer perfect, because humans don't deserve a perfect universe. Here's an example: According to the US Department of Justice, the average pedophile molests 260 children in their lifetime. Imagine that number if humans lived to be a 1000 years old.

Not unless you specify a minimum size of the points. If one is talking about physical points one would probably want to stop at the plank scale, but whatevs, this topic is not very interesting.

We have folks who understand evolution who accept it as true, who happen to also accept as true that god exists: I am cool with that.**

We have folks who understand evolution who accept it as true, who happen to not accept that god exists: that's me!

We have folks who do not understand evolution do not accept it as true, who happen to accept god exists: msharmony. (this is clear when she says she does not accept magic and compares that to evolution as if evolution was claiming that magically: poof you came from monkeys! (evolution doesnt claim this BTW) Where as creation really does say: poof you came from clay!

I just dont care much to argue either things that cannot be proven, or argue things which are tangential to science.

If you want to talk about why evolution is an accurate description of factual details regarding the diversity of life I am all for it! I see nothing gained by trying to argue the god equation.

**If you believe in a pantheist, or deist god there is nothing to argue nature is nature, if you believe in a theistic god then you need to find a gap, or claim it was all planned via fundamental physics (your most reduced gap, and I have nothing to say one way or the other)

My only gripe is that one should understand evolution before engaging in an argument one way or the other.

I am not clear what you are saying...

If you reduce everything to the minimum size possible (Planck length), you end up with 1.e33*1.e33 points per square centimeter. You would have a staggering number of points on a pool table, but not infinite.

You are preaching to the choir. I just wish more atheists felt the same way about religion. The Theory of Evolution is a wading pool compared to the width and depth of the ocean of Christian theology and that's just one religion. Many atheists would discount all regions based on an extremely flawed understanding of the most basic concepts and beliefs of one or at best a handful.

the adaption of changing environments is called evolution... thats why some species of animals die out because they cannot adapt. we did not create the 100's of breeds of dogs and cats, evolution did. we just gave a helping hand. and there was never a time when the universe was perfect, perfection does not exist.

Right, so that is half of what I said. If you ignore the size of the point then there is an infinity of points, that was the other half, and clearly what the other poster was talking about.

touche! (however religion is hardly like science in that since, trying to understand religion requires subjective interpretations, which I do not see as important mostly becuase they lack objective reference, same reason I rarely comment on QM interpretations ect)

That's true. Some species cannot evolve quickly enough to a changing environment, so the species goes extinct. Those are evolutionary dead ends.



No, evolution had nothing to do with it. As you already stated "the adaption of changing environments is called evolution". Humans use selective breeding as a tool to tap into the flexibility of the DNA. Evolution is not involved. The poodle didn't evolve, it was designed.



That is a statement of faith, not fact.

I think most evolutionary biologist would disagree.

I think these days they include unnatural selection as a part of evolution. I could be wrong, but I think they take a wider view of the field in that regard.

selective breeding only changes what does the selecting, which does not change the field of study.

Most definitions of evolution these days go something like this.

Changes in the allele frequencies of species over time. < Which would include selective breeding.

You can't get any smaller than the smallest size possible. Yes, the number of points on a pool table may seem infinite to the human mind, but that number can be counted and is therefore not infinite. Infinity is a concept, not a number.

I agree, I was explaining the reference.

Clearly he meant mathematically, and not physically.

no, that is a fact. you believing that perfection exists/existed is faith. i won't argue about the dogs, but i will still believe it was evolution more than man. man breed the dogs, yes, but you cannot say it would not have happened with mans help.who is to say mans intervention is not part of their evolution? other animals have complex relationships too, and it if one or the other died out, they both would. look how some species of ants milk aphids. if the aphids died, so would the ants. and in return, the ants protect the aphids from other predatory bugs.

Infinity has no place in math. It's a concept, not a number.

I know this is a rabbit trail, but it has to be understood. Nothing in infinite in our universe. Infinity is a concept, not a number.

I suppose it's possible that "infinite" was said colloquially and I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I still think it needs to be straightened out. Nothing is infinite. There is a finite number of points in the universe, not to mention on a pool table.

so where does the universe end or start? since we do not know, then for all practical purposes, the universe is infinite.

Practical? Maybe. Scientifically? Mathematically? No. Absolutely not.

What does it gain you to say that the universe is infinite? What is it Carl Sagan says...something like "Every galaxy has a billion stars and the universe is composed of a billion galaxies". A billion billion is a very large number, but it's a number.

I would just say "The universe is unimaginably large" and leave it at that. Saying that the universe is infinitely large, when we know it isn't is just just stupid. It's funny that atheists are willing to say that God doesn't exist, despite having no proof to support the claim, but they are willing to say that the universe is infinitely large, when we know that just isn't true.

how do you know it isn't true?

Geometry is how we know what the possibilities are.

I am no cosmology guru, but I was under the impression the current favored model is an infinite flat universe.

Found this, but again not really my field, so argue away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe


Been reading Laurence Krauss new book something from nothing and he goes over the various models without himself committing, so not sure its been sealed as a deal.

I find it funny any time someone tries to prove a negative myself, but hey whatevs.

I personally require positive evidence for positive existence, where a lack of positive evidence exists so does a positive belief.

Spider how in the hell can anyone prove something doesn't exist if it doesn't exist,matter of fact the only way to prove it would be through death and then in death you're dead,dead people can't talk.Abrahamic religion made sure it covered it's a s s by using you'll know when you're dead crap.So i guess i can assume that Hobgoblins exist because theres no proof they don't?Or fire breathing dragons exist cause there's no proof they don't either?

You can prove a negative.

I am not nonexistent. I am not a woman. I am not invisible. I am not a potato.

Thanks to the law of non-contradiction, anything that can be proven to be true, can also be proven to not be false.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. So if a person wants to claim that God doesn't exist, he needs to provide proof. It's one thing to say "I don't believe in God" and it's an entirely different thing to say "God does not exist".

Not my problem. That problem belongs to the person who makes the claim.



There is evidence from other sources than dying.



That's entirely up to you.

lol...as usual they make a claim then answer back with gibberish,evidence from other sources aka the bible,whatever dude.