Community > Science & Philosophy

Topic: Creation vs. Evolution.
mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 03/16/12 01:17 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please?

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 03/16/12 01:36 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 03/16/12 01:37 PM
I find it funny any time someone tries to prove a negative myself, but hey whatevs. I personally require positive evidence for positive existence, where a lack of positive evidence exists so does a positive belief. You can prove a negative. I am not nonexistent. I am not a woman. I am not invisible. I am not a potato. Thanks to the law of non-contradiction, anything that can be proven to be true, can also be proven to not be false. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. So if a person wants to claim that God doesn't exist, he needs to provide proof. It's one thing to say "I don't believe in God" and it's an entirely different thing to say "God does not exist". Context, context. Negative existence. Existence is the context. Prove (insert random thing) does not exist.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 01:38 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 03/16/12 01:39 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 03/16/12 01:41 PM
Infinity has no place in math. It's a concept, not a number. I know this is a rabbit trail, Infinity is a mathematical concept. While it may not exist in nature it has its place in math for sure. It may have no literal place in physics, but that is different. Definitely several rabbit holes in this thread already.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 01:41 PM
I find it funny any time someone tries to prove a negative myself, but hey whatevs. I personally require positive evidence for positive existence, where a lack of positive evidence exists so does a positive belief. You can prove a negative. I am not nonexistent. I am not a woman. I am not invisible. I am not a potato. Thanks to the law of non-contradiction, anything that can be proven to be true, can also be proven to not be false. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. So if a person wants to claim that God doesn't exist, he needs to provide proof. It's one thing to say "I don't believe in God" and it's an entirely different thing to say "God does not exist". Context, context. Negative existence. Existence is the context. Prove (insert random thing) does not exist. You are talking deductive vs inductive reasoning. No conclusion arrived at inductively can be proven, so saying you can't prove an inductive negative is redundant. But the larger point is the burden of proof remains with the person who makes the claim.

RKISIT Joined Tue 01/08/08 Posts: 16721	Fri 03/16/12 01:41 PM
I find it funny any time someone tries to prove a negative myself, but hey whatevs. I personally require positive evidence for positive existence, where a lack of positive evidence exists so does a positive belief. You can prove a negative. I am not nonexistent. I am not a woman. I am not invisible. I am not a potato. Thanks to the law of non-contradiction, anything that can be proven to be true, can also be proven to not be false. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. So if a person wants to claim that God doesn't exist, he needs to provide proof. It's one thing to say "I don't believe in God" and it's an entirely different thing to say "God does not exist". Context, context. Negative existence. Existence is the context. Prove (insert random thing) does not exist. You know whats even funnier just to prove i'm wrong i can't even prove God does exist...lol.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 01:46 PM
Infinity has no place in math. It's a concept, not a number. I know this is a rabbit trail, Infinity is a mathematical concept. While it may not exist in nature it has its place in math for sure. It may have no literal place in physics, but that is different. Definitely several rabbit holes in this thread already. Infinity is bandied about in mathematical and scientific theory, it's not a real number and is never treated like a real number.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 03/16/12 01:52 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. how you say something is fact when it is all based on a theory?

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 01:55 PM
You know whats even funnier just to prove i'm wrong i can't even prove God does exist...lol. Inductive reasoning always requires faith and any claim puts the burden of proof on the claimant. The point I was making (and still stands) is this: Many atheists have no problem making the inductive leap that God doesn't exist (Believe me, not even Evel Knievel could make that one), but refuse to take the deductive step to reject the infinite universe.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 03/16/12 01:56 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 03/16/12 01:58 PM
Infinity has no place in math. It's a concept, not a number. I know this is a rabbit trail, Infinity is a mathematical concept. While it may not exist in nature it has its place in math for sure. It may have no literal place in physics, but that is different. Definitely several rabbit holes in this thread already. Infinity is bandied about in mathematical and scientific theory, it's not a real number and is never treated like a real number. Mathematics deals with more than jut real numbers. Your statement was either poorly worded or just wrong, I was correcting it. No offense. Infinity is an important mathematical concept and many modern mathematical theories of physics would not work without that term included. In fact several cosmological theories will subtract infinity to get a discrete value. The reality is the topic is far more complex than a single blanket statement can encompass. I tend to try to stay fairly humble in these regards, there is far more I dont know, than that I do know on this topic.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 01:56 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. how you say something is fact when it is all based on a theory? How is the same said of Evolution? Or Gravity? Or Relativity. It's as close to a fact as we can get right now.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 01:57 PM
Infinity has no place in math. It's a concept, not a number. I know this is a rabbit trail, Infinity is a mathematical concept. While it may not exist in nature it has its place in math for sure. It may have no literal place in physics, but that is different. Definitely several rabbit holes in this thread already. Infinity is bandied about in mathematical and scientific theory, it's not a real number and is never treated like a real number. Mathematics deals with more than jut real numbers. Your statement was either poorly worded or just wrong, I was correcting it. No offense. When are unreal numbers applied to a real world problem? It's been awhile since I played pool, but I seem to remember that pool tables are real. Therefore, unreal numbers like "infinite" don't apply when talking about measuring a pool table.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 03/16/12 01:59 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. and also, you say "According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across." at least means the minimum, not the maximum, therefor, you cannot say that it cannot be infinite.

Bushidobillyclub Joined Fri 05/11/07 Posts: 5689	Fri 03/16/12 01:59 PM Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Fri 03/16/12 02:00 PM
I thought this thread was about evolution vs creationism? ------ BTW there are many kinds of infinities. I really dont think anyone currently posting in this topic is educated enough to speak convincingly about cosmology, so I tend to think it a waste of time to focus on that aspect. Just my .02

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 02:00 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. and also, you say "According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across." at least means the minimum, not the maximum, therefor, you cannot say that it cannot be infinite.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 03/16/12 02:00 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. how you say something is fact when it is all based on a theory? How is the same said of Evolution? Or Gravity? Or Relativity. It's as close to a fact as we can get right now. fact is fact, theory is theory. we know there is gravity, we know that evolution takes place, just because we don't know how doesn't make it any less fact...

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 02:02 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. how you say something is fact when it is all based on a theory? How is the same said of Evolution? Or Gravity? Or Relativity. It's as close to a fact as we can get right now. fact is fact, theory is theory. we know there is gravity, we know that evolution takes place, just because we don't know how doesn't make it any less fact... That's very dogmatic of you.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 03/16/12 02:05 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. and also, you say "According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across." at least means the minimum, not the maximum, therefor, you cannot say that it cannot be infinite. even if it is slightly curved, then how does it make it not infinite? and how do they know it's not like a wave, and not a circle?

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Fri 03/16/12 02:06 PM
i want to know how spider knows the universe is not infinitely large... can you explian this please? According to WMAP, the universe is at least 156 Billion Light years across. This is based on the Big Bang theory. The model used for understanding the universe is usually a flat plane, which would imply infinite, but that is just the current model. Both Einstein and our own observations show that the universe is slightly curved, which means it cannot be infinite. how you say something is fact when it is all based on a theory? How is the same said of Evolution? Or Gravity? Or Relativity. It's as close to a fact as we can get right now. fact is fact, theory is theory. we know there is gravity, we know that evolution takes place, just because we don't know how doesn't make it any less fact... That's very dogmatic of you. thank you.

Spidercmb Joined Fri 04/27/07 Posts: 13137	Fri 03/16/12 02:21 PM
even if it is slightly curved, then how does it make it not infinite? It would make the universe a pipe or sphere shape, rather than an infinitely large flat plane. and how do they know it's not like a wave, and not a circle? As far as I know, no scientist has suggested that the universe is a wave shape.