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Topic: Quackery
no photo
Mon 09/14/15 05:45 PM

well, everyone is entitled to their opinion...mine being i disagree with you...


This is indeed true. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, that does not mean everyone is entitled to their own set of facts.

Food, be it tofu or beefsteak, is made out of chemicals. Water is a chemical. Beer is made of many chemicals. I like chemicals. Eating lunch is stuffing yourself with far more chemicals than any doctor's prescription.

"Natural" products are loaded with chemicals, in wildly varying amounts and with atrocious process control. Nature is like that.

What the doctor prescribes is going to have in it what it supposed to be in it, and nothing else. Any 'herbal remedy' may have all kinds of stuff in it, possibly including the herb that is supposed to be in there.

Yes, there are agencies that are supposed to deal with purity and stuff, but herbalists and their pals in the U.S. Congress have basically forced them to totally abdicate their regulatory duty with regards to "natural" remedies. One in three were tested to find no trace of the alleged herb in them - Imagine if there was a one-in-three chance that the white bottle didn't actually contain any milk?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/herbal-supplements-are-often-not-what-they-seem.html?_r=0

(Linky might need fixing again)

You may wish to argue that you meant only specific chemicals, in which case you should have made that clear. While language does change over time, words still have meanings. If you say 'dynamite' to refer to a large hooved quadruped I'd call a 'horse' we will look at you funny when you say you like riding on a stick of dynamite.

Thus "chemicals". That word does not mean what you think it means.

S.

Rock's photo
Mon 09/14/15 05:52 PM


It's all quackery.
One form is sanctioned, the other isn't.



Um, actually, no. One is based on experiment, learning from failure, and slowly and irregularly advancing. It ain't perfect and they don't claim it is.

The other is horses#!t made up by some clown with nothing on their mind beyond making money off gullible people. They claim it is perfect. They are yankin' your chain. They are lying.

Not all that is natural is bad. Aspirin came from the bark of a willow tree. One of the major complaints about loss of biodiversity is that there's still a lot of things out there we haven't found yet.

Not all that is natural is good. Cyanide is perfectly natural. So's botulism and anthrax.

Finally, no.

Mixing science and nonsense is like mixing an apple pie with a cow pie. It does not improve the cow pie; it only ruins the apple pie.

(That's a quote. I did not originate the above. Think it was Richard Dawkins, but I'm not sure).


Have fun,

S.


(fixed typoes)



Ummm, actually no.
Your stated opinions do not outweigh anyone else's.

Matter of factly, you're wrong.

no photo
Mon 09/14/15 06:53 PM

Ummm, actually no.
Your stated opinions do not outweigh anyone else's.

Matter of factly, you're wrong.


My opinions do not. The facts do.

S.

tulip2633's photo
Tue 09/15/15 02:05 AM
Edited by tulip2633 on Tue 09/15/15 02:06 AM
@sm8

Sounds like you are doing all the right things; you're finding the triggers. Maybe get a second opinion from another physician; due to the vomiting. I'm sure you do it, but make sure rehydratring after vomiting episode.


no photo
Tue 09/15/15 05:34 AM

@sm8

Sounds like you are doing all the right things; you're finding the triggers. Maybe get a second opinion from another physician; due to the vomiting. I'm sure you do it, but make sure rehydratring after vomiting episode.




Thank you

Another option is the specialist but because of his age trying to lesson his migrains is a gamble. Not very many five year olds have migraine. So he would be a guinie pig.

no photo
Tue 09/15/15 07:39 AM


@sm8

Sounds like you are doing all the right things; you're finding the triggers. Maybe get a second opinion from another physician; due to the vomiting. I'm sure you do it, but make sure rehydratring after vomiting episode.




Thank you

Another option is the specialist but because of his age trying to lesson his migrains is a gamble. Not very many five year olds have migraine. So he would be a guinie pig.


You are right...he is going to be a diagnostician's dream...

mightymoe's photo
Tue 09/15/15 07:42 AM


well, everyone is entitled to their opinion...mine being i disagree with you...


This is indeed true. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, that does not mean everyone is entitled to their own set of facts.

Food, be it tofu or beefsteak, is made out of chemicals. Water is a chemical. Beer is made of many chemicals. I like chemicals. Eating lunch is stuffing yourself with far more chemicals than any doctor's prescription.

"Natural" products are loaded with chemicals, in wildly varying amounts and with atrocious process control. Nature is like that.

What the doctor prescribes is going to have in it what it supposed to be in it, and nothing else. Any 'herbal remedy' may have all kinds of stuff in it, possibly including the herb that is supposed to be in there.

Yes, there are agencies that are supposed to deal with purity and stuff, but herbalists and their pals in the U.S. Congress have basically forced them to totally abdicate their regulatory duty with regards to "natural" remedies. One in three were tested to find no trace of the alleged herb in them - Imagine if there was a one-in-three chance that the white bottle didn't actually contain any milk?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/herbal-supplements-are-often-not-what-they-seem.html?_r=0

(Linky might need fixing again)

You may wish to argue that you meant only specific chemicals, in which case you should have made that clear. While language does change over time, words still have meanings. If you say 'dynamite' to refer to a large hooved quadruped I'd call a 'horse' we will look at you funny when you say you like riding on a stick of dynamite.

Thus "chemicals". That word does not mean what you think it means.

S.



lol... i still disagree...

no photo
Wed 09/16/15 04:13 AM

lol... i still disagree...


That being the extent of your evidence, LOL right back. IHBT. Have fun. S.

metalwing's photo
Wed 09/16/15 06:30 AM


It's all quackery.
One form is sanctioned, the other isn't.



Um, actually, no. One is based on experiment, learning from failure, and slowly and irregularly advancing. It ain't perfect and they don't claim it is.

The other is horses#!t made up by some clown with nothing on their mind beyond making money off gullible people. They claim it is perfect. They are yankin' your chain. They are lying.

Not all that is natural is bad. Aspirin came from the bark of a willow tree. One of the major complaints about loss of biodiversity is that there's still a lot of things out there we haven't found yet.

Not all that is natural is good. Cyanide is perfectly natural. So's botulism and anthrax.

Finally, no.

Mixing science and nonsense is like mixing an apple pie with a cow pie. It does not improve the cow pie; it only ruins the apple pie.

(That's a quote. I did not originate the above. Think it was Richard Dawkins, but I'm not sure).


Have fun,

S.


(fixed typoes)



Your comments are only partially true. Yes science is science. But many of the drugs used today were "natural" remedies long ago. Willow tree bark was chewed for pain for ages til the active substance was discovered to be aspirin.

The compounds in "red yeast rice" are some of the most effective "statin drug" like compounds around. My doctor told me to take them.

Before Penicillin was discovered, "healers" put loaves of moldy bread on wounds to prevent infection.

There are troupes of drug company employees collecting plants from deep inside jungles and quizzing the natives about "natural cures" in the hopes of finding the next super drug.

Many of the modern drugs were once "home remedies".

Sure, much of the natural medicine being sold to the public is garbage just to make a buck, but you have to put it all into perspective.

no photo
Fri 09/18/15 02:02 AM
Edited by ShaggyMotorMan on Fri 09/18/15 02:03 AM
Given as I started this, I suppose I should carry on.

Allow me to very heavily edit:



Um, actually, no. One is based on experiment, learning from failure, and slowly and irregularly advancing. It ain't perfect and they don't claim it is.

...

Not all that is natural is bad. Aspirin came from the bark of a willow tree. One of the major complaints about loss of biodiversity is that there's still a lot of things out there we haven't found yet.

Not all that is natural is good. Cyanide is perfectly natural. So's botulism and anthrax.

...



Your comments are only partially true. Yes science is science. But many of the drugs used today were "natural" remedies long ago. Willow tree bark was chewed for pain for ages til the active substance was discovered to be aspirin.

The compounds in "red yeast rice" are some of the most effective "statin drug" like compounds around. My doctor told me to take them.

Before Penicillin was discovered, "healers" put loaves of moldy bread on wounds to prevent infection.

There are troupes of drug company employees collecting plants from deep inside jungles and quizzing the natives about "natural cures" in the hopes of finding the next super drug.

Many of the modern drugs were once "home remedies".

Sure, much of the natural medicine being sold to the public is garbage just to make a buck, but you have to put it all into perspective.


[The preceding commenter's quote was not edited}

If there is a substance in willow tree bark that makes a wonderful pain reliever, chemists will poke around and find it (incidentally, aspirin has so many wild side effects, including being a ridiculous blood thinner, that it would have a lot of trouble passing FDA approval today).

If there is any effective substance in red yeast rice, chemists will poke around and find it.

If you put bread on my cut I'd kick you. Yes, penicillin is a yeast. Not all yeasts are the same. Penicillin in my beer is actively dis-invited from the party. Yeast infections in the female attendees are similarly discouraged. It's good that you put "healers" in quotation marks because at the time they were just throwing out whatever seemed to them a good idea, and almost all of it was arrant nonsense. See Samuel Hahnemann.

Yeah, the 'home remedies' that actually work _were investigated and found to work and it was found out why_. There was a whole lot of old wives' tales out there too (Impregnate your horse with the east wind!) that have rightly and justifiably been discarded.

Many home remedies did kinda sorta work. Some just made the matter worse (no baths! The devil's in the bath!) so some were carefully tested, and the ones that worked were kept.

Carefully tested. Well, skin me alive and call me luggage, that sounds like science.

I have put it into perspective. The herbs you get in the grocery store might make your cooking taste better, but for healing? The "herbal cures in a jar" would be better used as fire-starter. Skip the aisle and go to the pharmaceutical window, where you'll get at least what you're supposed to get.

(Don't get me started again on the tests of 'herbal supplements' that didn't actually contain any of the herbs they were supposed to contain - but o lord they contained a lot of other stuff...)

(You'd think the FDA or someone would be on this. But noo, lobbyists made sure they came with no reasonable regulation at all)

It's not that 'most' of the herbal medicine sold to the public is garbage, it's all of it.

Have a nice day.

S.

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