DKoW - thank you. I was shaken by seeing the gore, and by having my own mortality graphically illustrated unexpectedly, but its not the first time. It may somehow be disrespectful or insensitive, but I'm mostly feeling so thankful to be alive, and to not be in a mind that craves death, as his apparently did.

DKWench;

Well, your question about the bible being a history of Abraham's family would have me making an exagerated generalization if I responded yes. However - on an extremely simplistic level, I guess you could say it sort of is. If one were to try and generalize the early books of the bible, I would say that the covenant God made with Abraham is perhaps one of the most central themes of the bible - both Old Testament, and New. From the line of Abraham comes the people who were "made into a great nation". And through Abraham "all peoples on the earth will be blessed through you."

So - though there are many other people referenced and discussed in the bible - most of it follows the decendants af Abraham - all the way through Jesus, and subsequently, the Nation that became the decendants of Abraham - the Jews.

So on the simpliest of levels, yes - the bible is a history of Abraham and his decendants

Well, gotta tell ya, mass, I'm definitely happy you are still here and glad to be so.

Big old honkin' hug, Eljay. I love your honesty!!!!

DKW;

ummm... what was the original topic of this thread?... oh... LOL

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A wise philosophy professor once told his class...

"No Christian can prove that God exists..."

... and then he went on to say...

"... and no atheist can prove God doesn't exist"

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After browsing rather quickly through 6+ pages of arguments, I think I can say without a shadow of a doubt... people like to argue. At least some people, anyways... anyone considering these folks as lifetime partners, etc might want to review this thread to see what they are in for if they decide to approach any of these arguers for any kind of friendship or relationship.

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I suppose I would therefore pose this question... in your system of beliefs, (whatever they might be, included the sum total of all the world’s religions, non-religions or anything else coyly added hereafter)... >>> does argument attain anything beyond silly vanity?

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I would guess that there are many other topics to consider in the world that might be more worthy of our time and efforts. Like... did you hug your kid today, or did you spend all day vainly arguing about religion? Or... how many starving people will actually die from hunger while you argue your religious topics? Or (fill-in-the-blank________) could be a heck of a lot more important than trying to prove your side of the god, no-god, any religion known to man issue in a dating site where (I thought) we came to meet people in order to establish friendships, partnerships, and possible relationships.

To me, arguing is a huge turn-off, and maybe I should write down some names of users to avoid that tend to like to argue about religion. I, for one, would not be attracted to anyone who was so minded to argue so endlessly and vainly about such trivial subjects, when there is better time to be spent doing much more constructive things with the limited amount of time each organism is allowed to live.

I thank God for Athiesm. I have this Athiest friend who has helped me a lot in my recovery. I tried to save him but he told me to save myself. It has really helped me a lot. It reminded me of when my Athiest father taught me how to swim. He threw my sister and me in the river and told us to swim or drown. At first I panic until my survival instinct kicked in. I started kicking like a baby will I later learn in Child Psychology. It made me more aware of nature around me and how baby birds are kicked out of the nest. I think survival of the fittest has some real merits to it.

I just have to say Spider...IF a computer could stand and applaud... this one would do just that as I doing just that for your posts. The same could be said about Abra's & others as I have thouroughly enjoyed reading what you have obviously put alot of thought and energy into. If I was to comment on anything it's to keep up that principle of attraction...I'll assume you know what this means and leave you with a sincere silent Bravo.

To the creator of this thread I would simply state... Not everything can be explained or proven in the sense of solid human logic.Some things are beyond out capacities at this time or beyond our capacities at all, thats yet to be determined.

One such theory might state that over intellectualizing anything will be a detriment to the process and subsequent outcome.

I could elaborate on this in numererous theories, history and other things that go bump in the night. Lets just uncomplicate a few things and maybe you'll come to see where I'm coming from and where this question might be better posed.

and this is really simplified so just bare with me...

Lets look at a simple emotion...the feeling of Love. How does one prove it in any sense of the word? We could argue till the cows come home between principles of science to Dr Ruth Weisenhiemer (sp) theories? depending on which kind of Love we are talking about lol to name BUT TWO. So lets not split hairs ... yes it makes our heart beat faster, yes its nice to receive nice gifts and kind words, yes it makes us feel happy and full of joy when in it and miserable when we fall out of it. Those are all tangibles but are they really a true measure of Love?...Isn't the truth of the matter intrinsically you know
within. Isn't it reality that very little of this emotion can be actually proven?

We can expand on this in any sense of the word and simplify theses thoughts and questions even greater. I would Love to quote the bible's defense but whats the use? God's intentions were not to argue nor drag people screaming into beleiving in him any more then scientists are trying to bang us over the
head.Although, It may be argued God is more alturistic but lets save that for another day shall we? Uniquely and more so commonly hence terminal uniqueness we all we all seemingly
possess the same curious questioning nature and within have numerous questions that go unanswered and will go unanswered. This can be stated about all theories...

There simply is no hard or fast regarding anything...sucks to be true. We don't have to like it we just have to accept it. What we know today could be disproved tomorrow...to make this even sillier to drive the point home... what would happen if tomorrow the sky opened and a site you never thought possible to see came to be? Would that change what you know today?...its possible.

Blind faith is called this for a very logical illogical reason. As for listening to me...I would suggest you take an onuce of it and discard the rest...go to the ultimate authority when asking questions you want answered. In closing I would think you would want an authority that isn't as messed up or as imperfect human mind is.

Best Wishes in finding the answeres you are looking for...

I think that there is a force that created the Universe (including the earth as your question was phrased).

I tend to use the name "God" for this creative force... although that can be tricky as so many have (obviously) so much invested in that word.

My "strongest evidence" for this?

It's something that I came to believe over time, bit by bit, piece by piece, thought by thought, feeling by feeling...

but I would have to say that the main thing that points to a god to me is the diversity, complexity, and beauty of this planet and its inhabitants. I can't see it as an accident.

Good Luck.

(((((((KK))))))))))))



I missed you my friend...

Telephone man;

Though I cannot say that your post is without merit, I will point out that the discussions on this thread - whether argumentative or otherwise, have basically stayed within the OP's question. Which is probably why we have not discussed whether or not anyone has hugged their kids today. I would think that thread would be somewhere else in the forums.

For me personally, I came here to make friends. Most of which are posting here. Though some of my friends do not share my interest in God - rather the opposite I might add. I value what they think and say about what they believe, and why it differs from what I believe. Though at times - it may appear to e arguing, I rather see it as veheamently deffending one's opinion. Every now and then we may call each other an idiot, or a fool - rather than calling the idea idiotic or foolish, but all in all - we keep coming back, and we keep responding to one another. Join in the fun - else walk away shaking your head, but realize that it is why we are here. To do that which we are doing.

Abra said:

What Feral seems to be unable to comprehend is that I’ve been there and done that. For me it’s beating a dead horse. However, just out of curiosity I thought I’d see if she had a rational explanation. I’m sure she doesn’t.

hmmmmm never condescending huh......

Feral wrote:
“hmmmmm never condescending huh......”

What I had said was not the least bit condescending. It was simply the truth. This is so common with religious people. They take religious conversation personally.

What I said was that you will not have an “original” explanation. And you didn’t. You just rehashed precisely the same thing I’ve been hearing over and over and over again from this religion for my entire life.

The fact that I get tired of hearing the same thing over and over and over again is not meant to be condescending, and if you took it that way I can only say that I’m sorry. I have no control over the way you take things, but from my end it was not intended to be the least bit condescending.

The fact is that you didn’t answer the question I asked, which doesn’t surprise me because the answer to the question I asked is NOT in the Bible. Therefore I knew you wouldn’t be able to find the answer in scriptures. How is that condescending?

The book just doesn’t answer these most fundamental questions of why these things were necessary. It just states that God did them. That’s a fact, and that fact should not be condescending to anyone (unless of course they wrote the book themselves).

I get tired of religious people always trying to claim that religious conversations are personal or condescending to them. If they feel that way they should simply avoid discussions that question their beliefs. It’s not fair to other people who are genuinely questioning philosophies and religion to continually accuse them of being condescending just because they don’t believe they way you do.

Actually I did answer it...maybe not the way you would of liked me to....but nonetheless it was answered.....God had to send Jesus to die for our sins or wipe the whole dang planet out again...hows that. Which he couldn't do as promised to Noah with the rainbow......

And what you can't seem to get through your thick skull....Is that all the answers for me are in the Bible...and if you choose to bypass that as scientific proof well thats your problem not mine......I answered all of your questions throughout the threads...and alot of times scriptures were not even brought into it....so again I say to you Abra......Bash my Lord, Bash his Words.....get bashed from me.......

And by the way it doesn't mean I don't respect your conclusions on how the world came about I do....and I love science and the whole scheme of how it fits......And if you want to believe evolution.....fine...creationalism, fine.....be a budah, fine, be a wiccan, fine, be anything you want.....Be happy......

Feral,

Very respectfully, I think I'm noticing that same tendency that we agreed upon earlier.

While I understand your personnal relationship with yuour God and his message to you to spread his word, there is a line one crosses that makes one's otherwise noble intentions, totally couterproductive. It accomplishes the opposite of what I'm sure are your noble and sincere intentions.

To be perfectly clear, 'feral', it has to do with the very real aspect of 'revealed faith'. As you know for yourself 'feral', and shared with us extensively, you believe that god spoke to you, and gave you a message. I respect that 'feral'. That is what is referred to, when we speak of 'revealed faith'. It is faith that is filled or founded upon one's agreement that god was 'revealed' to him/her.

As you know I'm sure, faith, as wel as 'revealed faith', as nothing to do with facts. Faith is not founded on facts. All one needs to have faith in a particular belief, is ascend to a particular concept as being true for oneself. In the case of religious belief, where a god is involved, the person ascends or agrees to believe that a god revealted itself to her/him.

It is all based on ascent or agreemnt on belief. Without ascent, agreeing to believe, there is no meeting grounds, and no shared truth between parties.

St-Thomas of Aquinas, did some great work on the subject of theological dogma, and 'revealed faith', in his ‘Summa Theologica’.

He basically explained the exact nature of the relationship between 'faith in the revelation', and 'non-faith in the revelation'. He said it this way:

"If our brother believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of ‘proving’ the articles of faith based on revelation. No amount of reasoning 'your belief' will be of any help. Faith is not based on reason. It is based on agreement in the beleif of revelations. On the other hand, nothing stops the conversation to keep explore faith itself". (Without revelations when there is no agreeement on revelation.)

It is clear that in a private space: one's church for example, with like minded people agreeing on the same 'revealed faith', the nature of the conversation will be fundamentally different, from a conversation in a public space forum, where one cannot assume, as you have been doing in these public forums 'feral', that there should be agreement on 'revealed faith', and your 'revealed faith' on top of that.

On that point alone, your denounciations, or impositions in these public forums or in public are litterally unfounded, and thereby counterproductive. Back to that feeling of frustration you experience.

Dealing with human beings is shortcut proof. If one takes intellectual, spiritual, or emotional short-cuts in dealing with human beings, lif has a way of 'backfiring' th incoherences right back.

Relating powerful between each other, is not easy, but those whom invest the effort, reap huge rewards.

Voil wrote:
“On that point alone, your denounciations, or impositions in these public forums or in public are litterally unfounded, and thereby counterproductive. Back to that feeling of frustration you experience.”

Exactly!

Feral wrote:
“....so again I say to you Abra......Bash my Lord, Bash his Words.....get bashed from me.......”

Feral I am not bashing your ‘lord’.

I am voicing my sincere and honest belief that the Bible is mythology. I’m doing this on an open public forum. Like Voil said, if you find that to be personally offensive then you shouldn’t be participating in public forums. You should seek out like-minded people in organizations where people aren’t inclined to discuss anything outside of their mutually compatible beliefs.

It is my belief that the Bible is mythology, and freedom of speech is one of the things this great nation is all about, and hopefully what the entire world will eventually be about.

I seriously see the Biblical picture as being detrimental to humanity as a whole on many levels and I have a right to voice this concern.

Abracadabra,

God became a man, subjecting himself to the laws he made for us, while he lived as a man. He showed us what we have to do to please him. He then suffered and sacrificed for us. So my logic is perfectly logical. Once again, you have a conclusion and you look for evidence to support it, rather than following the evidence to a conclusion. Jesus became a man, placing himself under the laws he created for us, fullfilled them perfectly and then died on the cross so that we don't have to die.

again...Jesus was not one to fight or prove his point by bashing anyone over the head to believe it. He went about doing his teaching and the work of his father in perfect Love for even those who hated and despised him. This hatred or disbelief did not lessen his teaching nor weaken what his purpose was while on earth.

Many of us could offer you scripture to base what we believe to be the answers for questions but like a children that has been told not to put their hand on the hot burner for about the hundredth time eventually even a loving parent will let the child burn their hand in order to prove that it was hot.You as well as myself we have all been given the choice to believe whatever we want to and a functioning mind and spirit by which to discern snake from oil (for the lack of better terms)...Still present in perfect Love and in perfect Harmony regardless of how much they do not align nor agree.

I suspect if I was to post scripture this would just fire this deep need to agrue Christian beliefs systems even more...maybe I'm wrong but I won't be bothering anytime soon. The fact remains there are many opinions on this topic and the correct one is not going to be won here on this thread.

Christ himself knew what the pharisees had to say about his teachings yet he did not waver nor was he overly concerned as it didn't change a thing on his way.

Are we really surprised that Gods People today don't have much concern over redundant arguments? Amazingly enough the only persons being confused are the confused but then again thats may be the whole argument OF purpose for some people.

Thank you feral. Your online research,is one of the pages I have also looked into. Reading it again is good.

God is god many ways and is many things to many. Not everyone sees God as a god the way we that believe, see Him. Since being on the pc and the sites, I have found and enjoy and learn much from those that have different belief systems than I.
What I have concluded in my mind is that I see my God in those that do not see Him in themselves. I see my God in them and they see something else. I am aware that whether it is light, wiccan, universe,or just a higher power, that it is working for them. It is all God to me.
Kat

Kat wrote: ". I see my God in them and they see something else. I am aware that whether it is light, wiccan, universe,or just a higher power, that it is working for them. It is all God to me.
Kat "

Beautiful.