OH! Poor homosexual men, they can't be scout leaders! Oh my, let me get a hanky.

Millions of women killed for honor a year? Millions of girls mutilated a year? Millions of women kept as sexual slaves? Milliions of wives beaten because someone has decided the Koran gives them the right? That's small potatoes compared to these poor poor homosexual men who are inconvenience.

Excuse me..I have to "Cry Me A River"..So Help Me, God...

Bibby - laugh or cry, it's not worth the effort.

Voil - You have brilliantly encapsulated the Constitution based ideas that I have been so inadequat in putting forth.

I became interested in History as a teenager when we studied in depth about our Civil War. That was exactly the time frame of JFK, and Martin Luther King. I became an advocate of the Constitution at that time. I put myself in harms way many times during my high school years. In those years, the first time in history, public high schools saw armed guards in the halls. I hated the injustice, the racial discrimination and the oppression of my black contrymen. THAT is when I became an advocate of all that this constitution stands for.

In many ways, I feel crippled by my open lifestyle because what I fight for "this time around" just 'happens' to include me. But that is not way I fight, I would fight the injustice no matter who was feeling the oppression.

I believe in the value and the beauty of the idealistic foundation that was so carefully,and justly surmized, written and given into the care of each succeeding generation.

I don't fight because I'm a lesbian, I fight because it's the right thing to do.

Fanta and Voil, you both seem be of the opinion that our life times will not see the resolution. Let me relate a quick story. My son and I watched a History documentary. In it prominant black people were portrayed, talking about how they were affected by bigotry and discrimination. Because of their prominance there were pictures and films of the times. My son fequently shook his head, made comments about how awful it was, how did that go on for so long and the like. Then he turned to me and said "Can you even imagine what it must have been like then?" I looked him squarely in the eye and said "yes, I can, I was there" He was shocked, and then he was amazed when he suddenly realized that what he had seen on the television had not been 100 years ago, or 70 or even 50. He was 19 at the time and he couldn't get over how far we've come is so short a time.

I know it wasn't that short, because I know that the battle for the black community began many years before, when a man named Lincoln declared them free citizens of these United States.

So maybe I - we, won't see a full resolution, but I've seen what persistance and truth can yield. And don't think for a second that I will ever waver from my commitment to uphold what I believe to be the most fundamental civil and ethical guide to a free and equal society that this world has ever seen. It has it's flaws, but under constant vigil of those who bask in it's light, those flaws can be corrected.

Life isn't fair...because people don't strive to make it fair.

KerryO - Something I forgot to mention to you, maybe you'll find some value in it.

Sometimes a teacher feels they've failed to educate. But given enough time every teacher finally realizes that not every seed they sow will bloom in their sight. We just have to believe they will bloom, sometime.

Kid - people don't strive to make life fair, if there's nothing wrong in their lives. One of the most important lessons we should have learned, that kids should still learn in school, is that it's our responsibility to make sure our government will support the lifestyle we expect to be able to live under its rule.

Redykeulous

You wrote:
"... Fanta and Voil, you both seem be of the opinion that our life times will not see the resolution..."

I wish wholehearted for religious oppressive fundamentalism to be relegated to the basements of marginality of our free societies under the quickest possible timetable.
I applaud your optimism, and am not attached to my personnal prognosis.

Either way, whether it happens sooner or later matters much less than the fact that it is happening.

There is absolute light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not a train of religious fundamentalism). Everytime one summons the 'heroic' courage to denounce oppressive religious fundamentalist flatearth mentalities, one is doing it whith the Constitution as a partner. The outcome is laid out. The rule of law simply requires that each perversion of the law be denounced, and prosecuted through due process.

For now, in my opinion, given the last gappings of the religious fundamentalist zealots fueling all of the bigotry, all that matters is the denouncing fight.

In other words, I'm counting on xenophobia, bigotry and oppression to remain solid components of human nature. Denounciation will not get rid of bigotry and oppression, but by relagating such, to our societies' basement of marginality, as is occurring IMO, allows the emergence of equal rights for all human beings, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. Not a perfect world, but an equal world.

While we obviously have different perspectives 'redy', Fanta, you and I (to name but us three for now), IMO, are waging the same fight!!!

I dont think that our lifetimes will see the resolutions of very much, the 20th cenntury was an anomaly as to the amount of progress made in it and i believe history will stabilize in our lifetimes rather than continue speeding forward

Day in and day out we read the horror of killing innocent children, whether it be with words or laws or even bigotry.
First we harm them with words, then with threats, then ultimately with violence which leads to their deaths. Be it murder, minds, hearts, basic human rights or SUICIDE.

What has happened to this country? Has it been made so afraid that the Constitution created to protect all of us including the minorities from the majorities, is no longer honored?

The American culture through its actions towards others and its actions towards its own people has lost its civility and respect.

A great man once said "Let us put our minds together and see what kind of world we can make for our children."

The world this country and other countries are making for children is terrifying. The extreme fear and loathing for our fellow human beings is everywhere.

We define ourselves as a nation and as a people by what we do to the earth and by what type of culture we leave to our children.

The living nightmare that this country and others have wrought through their passion for violence and causing pain and suffering to all sentient beings is now the inheritance for our children.

What are we doing to our future heritage? Our world as it has been and continues... and becomes so frothed with hate and misunderstanding? Letting people live closed minded and full of vengence against those that are different, and who only want love and to live their lives as we all do. Be it hetero or gay or lesbian. Black, white, hispanic, female. All over the world bigotry against all those mentioned is being fought against by many who see the injustice and hatered that is so ugly and the need to compromise and live and let live without fear of those that may be different.

Death is death, in many ways. Who gives anyone a right to kill a child be it physical, mentallly, emotionally or any damn way? Or for that matter, an adult?

ALL CHILDREN SHOULD BE MADE TO FEEL SAFE AT SCHOOL...IN PUBLIC...IN SOCIAL CLUBS...ABSOLUTELY ALL CHILDREN...EVERYWHERE...ANYTIME. ACCEPTANCE IS THE KEY. RIGHT IS RIGHT...AND WRONG IS WRONG.
Kat

I found this in my mail. I hadn't read it yet. I belong to a GLBT organization, because I want to help those that need help living their lives. And it keeps me up on what is happening in all types of legalities...not only gay and lesbian issues.=======================

(Hanover, New Hampshire) Gov. Bill Richardson said Wednesday night that if he is elected president he would refuse to accept the position of Honorary Chair of the Boy Scouts of America because of Scouting's ban on gays.

The New Mexico governor made the pledge during a Democratic presidential debate in Hanover, New Hampshire.

Richardson was asked if he would accept the chair of the organization, traditionally offered to presidents.

"No, I wouldn’t, because I think as president I would commit myself, number one, that I will be a leader that prevents discrimination on the basis of race, gender and sexual orientation, " he replied.

No president has refused the offer of chair of the Boy Scouts.

In 2000 the Supreme Court turned down an appeal from a scout leader from New Jersey who was fired when the organization learned he is gay and in a longterm relationship.

The high court ruled that the Boys Scouts and its affiliates could prohibit gays because it is a private organization.

The ruling said the Constitution gave scouts the right to choose its members. The Scouts also prohibits atheists.

Membership in the BSA has declined since the Supreme Court ruling.

A number of cities banned the scouts from using public facilities, and charitable groups like some United Way chapters cut off the scouts.

But, in cities where agencies like the United Way continues to fund the BSA it has been alleged that troops are being encouraged to list fake names as members to boost enrolment making the group eligible for more money.

In 2005 the FBI began an investigation into charges scout leaders in Alabama, Georgia, and Texas pumped up the number of scouts in their troops in order to obtain more funding from the United Way and other charitable organizations.

Kat

WTG

it looks like a small step forward, hopefully this continues.

Hi Kat, haven't seen you in ages

The GLBT organization, IMO, is about as trustworthy and unbiased as Move-on. org, and very close to the Bush Administration. They will attack and push their cause at the expense of anyone who they deem will give them the most attention to achieve its cause.

Granted it may be a good cause, but their are ethics and honor that should be followed. To attack and destroy at any expense is not honorable or ethical. It is spiteful and reckless.

The GLBT organization is making grounds in their fight. Just think how much faster your efforts would succeed if you were winning hearts and minds that attacking turns away! Attacking an organization like the BSA pisses people off like me, and more importantly people in a more powerful and influential position, that would normally support you.

You pick the wrong battlefield. Even if you beat the scouts, is the GLBT organization going to suddenly revive them. If not then you have done nothing but destroy an institution which has done great things, and created so many great leaders for this country.

That and make enemies along the way, create a lot of resistance! Then who wins?

Not America, not the children, and not the GBLT!!!

Destruction like destroying the BSA, is it worth it!
I have not been spiteful, ok a little,,,and I have not used religous rhetoric in the presentation of my arguement.

I do respect you Redy, but damn it, our strides cross paths on this trail! Sorry!!!

The BSA is not in jeopardy of being beat in any field. The GLBT is merely wanting the same rights as all of us do.
But, since when is it okay to cheat and lie to get funding and then preach honesty?
The BSA is/was a worthy and just cause for years. It is without a doubt trying to model young men in this world. But, modeling it for whom? And for what? At what expense? At whose expense? If they would only teach that it is equality for all...it would be a whole different matter. Equality is mentioned in there somewhere. Just look for it.
I am not against them, but what do they really stand for right now? I mean...it is the adults that are leading these young boys and men. The adults.......The adults. The adults are calling the shots here. It is very well known that in middle schools and high schools that it is no longer acceptable to ostercise these people with different ways. In fact; the kids now days are better informed and more willing to accept and stand with these young people.
Kat

Hi vis. Haven't been on here for some time. I mostly came in and read. Didn't feel like there was anything I had to add to anything.
Been really busy lately also.
Glad to see you.
Kat

Scttrbrain writes:

"The ruling said the Constitution gave scouts the right to choose its members. The Scouts also prohibits atheists."

Wow. I didn't know that. Wish I'd known this before I donated time and materials back in the 90's when I was in business for myself.

From their bylaws:

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

Well, I guess the 'In God We Trust' on my money was 'wholesome' enough for them as far as my contributions were concerned.

So come on now, BSA apologists, let's have some good old fashioned atheist/agnostic bashing- tell us how we are a menace to society and for not being "the best kind of citizen".

Looks to me that bit about 'a Boy Scout respects the beliefs of others' is RIGHT out the window.

-Kerry O.