Topic: Fact v Opinion
no photo
Fri 06/22/18 08:50 AM




I wonder why they would use Trump as the case study, he waged war on media, media fought back.

I think there would be better examples.


no, you have it azz backwards,the media constant bombardment of Trump led him to punch back.

When a bully smacks you around you have two choices you either fight back or do nothing and accept it.

They were on Trump from the very beginning because they wanted to see Hillary in the white house, they wanted the first woman to be in the white house, no matter who the Republican nominee was they were out to get the republican

The only republican I think might have not the Media scrutiny and that is a maybe would have been McCain, and that is a maybe.

Trump is the perfect whipping boy for them, because he is unconventional, a womanizer among his other bad qualities.

If Ben Carson would have won, they would be bringing up his lawsuits, and spreading other garbage about him even though he is a world class surgeon.

The media hates Trump with a passion, hence why they are digging up stories on him like the Grab them by the p ussy comment, when you perfectly well know that most men says things like that in the company of other men, just like Im sure Hillary when shes out with friends have made similar comments about men or maybe women if the rumours of her sexuality is true.


msharmony's photo
Fri 06/22/18 08:59 AM
Trump put media in cages and taunted his rally audiences against them while insisting to the world stage they were nothing but liars ... he worked them as much as he is working the rest of us ... hopefully, future students will see THAT as the example


,Trump took advantage of what political scientists call the “Rule of Anticipated Importance.” The rule states that the media tend to cover candidates and issues in proportion to how much they’re expected to matter. As the first real front-runner, Trump enjoyed a higher level of anticipated importance than the other GOP candidates. This, in turn, encouraged more coverage. Had Trump’s outrageous comments about John McCain, Muslims, the 14th Amendment and all the rest resulted in falling poll numbers, the media might have pulled back. But as his numbers rose, the media obeyed the Rule of Anticipated Importance. The best answer to the question of which came first, Trump or the media? Trump.

As Trump the brand-builder transformed himself into Trump the candidate, all those years of almost never saying no to a media opportunity finally paid off. Already red-hot, Trump’s fame burned brighter than a magnesium fire when finally exposed to the concentrated media flame that is the presidential campaign. He brought the carnival style of his business practices to the gentlemanly art of campaigning,


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/did-media-reporters-create-trump-2016-campaign-213840

no photo
Fri 06/22/18 09:18 AM

Trump put media in cages and taunted his rally audiences against them while insisting to the world stage they were nothing but liars ... he worked them as much as he is working the rest of us ... hopefully, future students will see THAT as the example

which media figure did he have caged?


,Trump took advantage of what political scientists call the “Rule of Anticipated Importance.” The rule states that the media tend to cover candidates and issues in proportion to how much they’re expected to matter. As the first real front-runner, Trump enjoyed a higher level of anticipated importance than the other GOP candidates. This, in turn, encouraged more coverage. Had Trump’s outrageous comments about John McCain, Muslims, the 14th Amendment and all the rest resulted in falling poll numbers, the media might have pulled back. But as his numbers rose, the media obeyed the Rule of Anticipated Importance. The best answer to the question of which came first, Trump or the media? Trump.


so what?



As Trump the brand-builder transformed himself into Trump the candidate, all those years of almost never saying no to a media opportunity finally paid off. Already red-hot, Trump’s fame burned brighter than a magnesium fire when finally exposed to the concentrated media flame that is the presidential campaign. He brought the carnival style of his business practices to the gentlemanly art of campaigning,


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/did-media-reporters-create-trump-2016-campaign-213840



and it got him elected, so what?

msharmony's photo
Fri 06/22/18 09:48 AM
exactly, it is an EXAMPLE of what politicians will do to get elected more so than an EXAMPLE of media bias ...

no photo
Fri 06/22/18 10:20 AM

exactly, it is an EXAMPLE of what politicians will do to get elected more so than an EXAMPLE of media bias ...


you didnt answer my original question

Media bias I dont think had anything to do with Trump being elected, he just beat them at their own game.

Off topic, the media wanted Obama re elected and they painted Romney with a bad brush.

The media wanted Obama in and McCain had no chance

the Media didn't want Reagan in especially during his reelection and was supporting Mondale and look what happened?

Reagan smoked Mondale like a bad cigar, Reagan took 49 of 50 states, 525 electorate votes compared to Mondale's 13, if that wasn't an azz kicking I dont know what is.

My Mother is a retired History teacher and follows politics around the world as a passion, she told me this many times


The media has always been a nasty group particularly after LBJ's Vietnam fiasco , prior to that it was the media the white house together like the olds boys club, today not so much.


msharmony's photo
Fri 06/22/18 10:23 AM
I agree, media is not the culprit that gets people elected or not, AMericans usually have their minds made up and follow media that reinforces/validates the beliefs they already hold


JES1989's photo
Sun 06/24/18 06:52 PM
I’ll just leave this little tidbit, ‘cause at the request of someone that I have started talking to, I am discontinuing my account on this site shortly.
To Diserli Gears:
I agree that living in constant anger is bad for you, but there is a difference between that, and righteous anger.

I was actually looking forward to replying to you on my next day off. Maybe I’ll run into you somewhere else, and I can explain my positions in detail.

If things go the way I hope they will with this lady, I won’t on this site again.

I wish good luck to everyone here in finding that special someone.

no photo
Sun 06/24/18 07:13 PM
oh okay, and good luck with your new lady friend Jes.


JES1989's photo
Tue 06/26/18 10:50 AM
I appreciate the wish of good fortune Diserli_gears, but I have now become convinced that it was just another scam. I will likely report her profile (assuming she is a she) unless she can convince me she is real in a timely manner, because I don't want any other lonely souls to get scammed. sad2

On the bright side, looks like we have lots of debating to look forward to. I probably won't even bother deactivating my account next time. If someone is really in to me, they'll just need to trust me, just as I'll have to learn to trust them.

I just need to finish my chores first, because there is a ton to go through here, and I doubt I will be able to cover it all in one sitting.

I also appreciate your politeness. After feeling down from the high of thinking I finally found someone, you have helped me feel a little better.

An immature individual would have probably to accused me of just taking a cowardly way out. You on the other hand responded in a way that I would expect from someone who is mature, and that is something that I respect.


From reading some of the posts above, it seems that there also needs to be a discussion about the line between forming a logical conclusion and jumping to conclusions. Informing the reader what could happen, but isn't known for sure... Hmm, I could definitely see how it could be difficult to tell the difference. And if it confirms your confirmation bias, would you even see it as biased, or a logical conclusion?

no photo
Tue 06/26/18 11:04 AM
Well Jes, sorry to hear about misfortune with your lady friend , but it happens.


And as to the line of forming a logical conclusion and jumping to conclusion, well that is what makes the forums interesting because you can see who understands the difference between jumping to conclusions vs forming a logical conclusion.




Toodygirl5's photo
Tue 06/26/18 12:38 PM
Edited by Toodygirl5 on Tue 06/26/18 12:40 PM
I have been looked at as mean, when I ask every man, who messages me, if he is real.
I do this often, when I have that feeling. :smile:

Many don't. Message back.

Toodygirl5's photo
Tue 06/26/18 12:52 PM

personally I rather deal with a person that has common sense vs a high educated person with no common sense as we see in modern day post secondary institutions .

For example I dont know if you know this story but there was a Professor at a university her name is Randa Jarrar made an awful comment about the passing of Barbara Bush earlier this year.

This is a tenure professor, you cant tell me she has common sense,because anyone with common sense would not have said the things she said even though she is entitled to her opinions and free speech.




So True !! I heard her comments on"The Talk" tv program.


JES1989's photo
Tue 06/26/18 01:12 PM

Well Jes, sorry to hear about misfortune with your lady friend , but it happens.


And as to the line of forming a logical conclusion and jumping to conclusion, well that is what makes the forums interesting because you can see who understands the difference between jumping to conclusions vs forming a logical conclusion.






I think it's also important to be able to admit when you jump to a conclusion, so you do it less/no more. Improvement should always be a part of the human experience.


I have been looked at as mean, when I ask every man, who messages me, if he is real.
I do this often, when I have that feeling. :smile:

Many don't. Message back.


I actually expressed the possibility that her name was a pseudonym. She got really defensive. Guess I hit the nail right on the head. A part of me is hoping I'm wrong, because I hate not having someone special in my life, but I ran a background check. Now I have another reason to hate the love of money.

mysticalview21's photo
Tue 06/26/18 05:50 PM

Only a quarter of U.S. adults in a recent survey could fully identify factual statements - as opposed to opinion - in news stories, the Pew Research Center found in a study released on Monday.

The survey comes amid growing concerns about so-called fake news spread on the internet and social media. The term generally refers to fabricated news that has no basis in fact but is presented as being factually accurate.

Facebook Inc , Alphabet Inc's Google and other tech companies have recently come under scrutiny for failing to promptly tackle the problem of fake news as more Americans consume news on social media platforms.

The main portion of Pew's survey polled 5,035 adult Americans aged 18 and above in February and March. The study was intended to determine if respondents could differentiate between factual information and opinion statements in news stories.

Participants were given five factual statements such as "spending on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid make up the largest portion of the U.S. federal budget," and five opinion statements such as "democracy is the greatest form of government." They were asked to identify which ones were factual and which were opinions.

Only 26 percent were able to correctly identify all five factual statements. On opinions, about 35 percent were able to correctly identify all five statements. Roughly a quarter got most or all wrong in identifying facts and opinions, the research showed.

The study found that participants' ability to classify statements as factual or opinion varied widely based on their political awareness, trust in the news media, and "digital savviness" or degree to which they are confident in using digital devices and the internet.

"There is a striking difference in certain Americans in distinguishing what are factual statements and what are not and that depends on one's level of digital savviness, political savviness," Amy Mitchell, director of journalism research at Pew Research Center, said in an interview.

The study also found that when Americans call a statement "factual" they overwhelmingly also think it is accurate. They tend to disagree with factual statements they incorrectly label as opinions, Pew said.

The research showed Republicans and Democrats were also more likely to think news statements are factual when the statements appeal to their side, even if the statements were opinions.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/americans-grapple-recognizing-facts-news-stories-pew-survey-140456645.html


Whats the difference?
A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person's feelings that cannot be proven.
That's hitting the Nail on the head ...:thumbsup:

This was good tonight ... Chris Hedges and Ralph Nader ...
Talk facts...

American Mythology and the loss of democracy

https://youtu.be/y9OJZOMEjOU

gmccorkill's photo
Thu 06/28/18 07:47 AM
I think a lot of news is fake I personally attended a Trump campain apperance and a Bernie Sanders appearance(unable to get to the Hillary one)Over 12000 people were at Trumps event with maybe 50 protesters All the news talked about was the protesters.Bernies had less than 100 people but was made out to be huge on the news

IgorFrankensteen's photo
Thu 06/28/18 08:51 AM
Edited by IgorFrankensteen on Thu 06/28/18 08:52 AM

I think a lot of news is fake I personally attended a Trump campain apperance and a Bernie Sanders appearance(unable to get to the Hillary one)Over 12000 people were at Trumps event with maybe 50 protesters All the news talked about was the protesters.Bernies had less than 100 people but was made out to be huge on the news


I've seen the same kind of thing a number of times as well, since I chance to live in the DC area, where lots of "news" takes place.

Examples include:

dramatic UNDER count of anti-war protesters, back in the 1970's;

completely ignoring Chinese protests that blocked the entire center of the city;

wild OVER count of certain right-wing anti-government rallies (most notably the tea Party sponsored marches that were supposed to blossom into a full scale rebellion, but which were scarcely noticeable in the event).

Many people today, haven't studied the past enough to realize that news reporting has ALWAYS been susceptible to overt corruption, but even more of a problem it has been susceptible to subversion by fads, and by capitalism itself (that is, when it's PROFITABLE to feed wild stories to the public, we get more of them, whether any of them are true or not).

There have been MANY fads in the past, where it became "fashionable" for reporters to look for corruption in government, or scandals amongst the upper classes, or fantasy conspiracies amongst the lower classes. Once such a fad takes hold, people start to see the corruption or the conspiracies where nothing but coincidence exists, and everything goes off the rails.

One of the most ironic fads right now, is the fad of blaming "fake news" for any information people prefer to disbelieve. What I find most ironic, is that it is the people more to the RIGHT end of the political spectrum who want to pretend all bad news is fake news now. They are behaving IDENTICALLY to the left end of the spectrum people of the 1970's, who claimed that the entire mass media was a tool of the "establishment," and therefore never to be believed.

Watch out for one repeating act of self-destruction: patting yourself on the back for turning your back on ALL major news reports, or on all reports that don't flatter you, simply because SOME of them prove to be false or misleading.

I like to emphasize the danger with that, by taking a fresh and unbiased look at the old folk tale of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

The common lesson people take from that, is that the BOY was the fool, because he kept making false reports, and eventually died because of it.

However, most people completely overlook the OTHER huge lesson: the entire town in that story, lost all of their sheep, and therefore their livelihood, because they decided that ALL news from the boy was "fake news," and that they could therefore ignore him entirely.




no photo
Thu 06/28/18 09:06 AM


Many people today, haven't studied the past enough to realize that news reporting has ALWAYS been susceptible to overt corruption, but even more of a problem it has been susceptible to subversion by fads, and by capitalism itself (that is, when it's PROFITABLE to feed wild stories to the public, we get more of them, whether any of them are true or not).


I dont understand your capitalism analogy? what does capitalism have to do with it?



There have been MANY fads in the past, where it became "fashionable" for reporters to look for corruption in government, or scandals amongst the upper classes, or fantasy conspiracies amongst the lower classes. Once such a fad takes hold, people start to see the corruption or the conspiracies where nothing but coincidence exists, and everything goes off the rails.


if you're a student of history as you claim Igor, you would know that journalism/reporters has since the election of the 2nd United States president has always reported gossip, rumours, stories planted by opposing parties, scandals etc, today it just more sensationalized because of social media.

All one has to read is the newspapers reporting on the 1800 election between Jefferson and Adams, if you read those papers( you can find them archived online or the local library) you would swear you're reading the crap that was reported on the Hilary Clinton vs Donald Trump campaign

One of the most ironic fads right now, is the fad of blaming "fake news" for any information people prefer to disbelieve. What I find most ironic, is that it is the people more to the RIGHT end of the political spectrum who want to pretend all bad news is fake news now. They are behaving IDENTICALLY to the left end of the spectrum people of the 1970's, who claimed that the entire mass media was a tool of the "establishment," and therefore never to be believed.


I think a lot on the right are frustrated with today's media, they are supposed to be unbiased and instead of reporting news they promote propaganda , you are correct with what happened in the 1970's from the left and how they were frustrated with the media.




Easttowest72's photo
Thu 06/28/18 09:17 AM
There was a time that illegals coming here was beneficial to our country. They were basically slave labor for the farming industry. Their families going on the welfare system wasn't a problem because we all benefited from them because of cheaper food. Now illegals are coming here just for the welfare and free education.
I think media is pretending to be liberal because it makes it so much easier for them to report the corruption that is going on.

For instance, the interview with Cortez plainly being racist and offering welfare and open borders, wouldn't have went smoothly if they hadn't pretended it is a good thing.

IgorFrankensteen's photo
Thu 06/28/18 09:20 AM
I dont understand your capitalism analogy? what does capitalism have to do with it?


You probably didn't see the edit I added about that, to try to clarify it.

Expanding on it a bit, the news business is, first and foremost A BUSINESS. And AS a business, it has customers to please, in order to get profits.

Just as capitalism's basics have always ignored whether or not a product or service is WISE for people to buy into, so too, because the PROFITABILITY of reporting the news isn't directly linked to factuality or to overall truth or insight, only to popularity, capitalism tends to drive news reporting to be based on what people are attracted to watch, rather than by what is truly important.

One of the single BIGGEST reasons why news reporting is so bad these days, goes back directly to the shift that took place back in the seventies, from having news be considered a pure SERVICE that the media companies put on, to partially repay the government for access to the airwaves, and was declared to instead, be required to be a PROFIT CENTER OF IT'S OWN. As soon as that modern "business science" concept was put into place, our news shifted away from what was going on, to whatever titillated, or upset people, because if people are upset, they tend to stay through commercials.

no photo
Thu 06/28/18 09:41 AM


You probably didn't see the edit I added about that, to try to clarify it.

Expanding on it a bit, the news business is, first and foremost A BUSINESS. And AS a business, it has customers to please, in order to get profits.

Just as capitalism's basics have always ignored whether or not a product or service is WISE for people to buy into, so too, because the PROFITABILITY of reporting the news isn't directly linked to factuality or to overall truth or insight, only to popularity, capitalism tends to drive news reporting to be based on what people are attracted to watch, rather than by what is truly important.

One of the single BIGGEST reasons why news reporting is so bad these days, goes back directly to the shift that took place back in the seventies, from having news be considered a pure SERVICE that the media companies put on, to partially repay the government for access to the airwaves, and was declared to instead, be required to be a PROFIT CENTER OF IT'S OWN. As soon as that modern "business science" concept was put into place, our news shifted away from what was going on, to whatever titillated, or upset people, because if people are upset, they tend to stay through commercials.


Well I take exception to the characterization of capitalism ignoring whether a product or service is wise for the people.

Capitalism is just a system where market economies thrives or fails.


newspapers are in the business of selling papers, just like news outlets business to report the news and get as many eyeballs as possible watching it.

The problem is bad news , tragedies, scandals generally captures the attention of the audience more than good news and feel good stories which rarely captures people's attention.

that isn't the fault of capitalism, its just the news outlets responding to what the public wants.

The average person isn't going to pick up a newspaper or turn on CNN to see a story about a Policeman risking his or her life to save a person from drowning in a river.

But they will pick up the paper or turn on the news when they report a minority getting shot by law enforcement or some celebrity doing bad and naughty things.

Capitalism has nothing to do with that? every business whether in the private sector, public sector in a so called capitalist society or marxist Leninist society or so called socialist system profits, the question is who keeps the profits.