Her mother made court easy for me! She threatened suicide Memorial weekend after crashing her car, being well drunk of course! Then again, she just had an accident 5 days earlier cause of prescription pills :( Then in court, she showed her true psychotic self by saying, I had enough I am leaving :( Judge looked at her an was like, your what? Then she tried telling the judge what to do and that her decision was final not his!!! Yeah sometimes you don't have to say that much in court, you just gotta let the other person show their true colors.
Thankfully I have complete primary care and my daughter is happier then she ever was. Grades are just about straight A's and she's no longer scared she's going to get abused anymore!!! Thank God!

I am still not sure how one does not 'realize' they are being abused.

But, as devils advocate, if this were true, would it then be just as likely that one does not 'realize' they are being abusive?

Where would the accountability lie? People treat us how we allow them to (with the exception of kids). So, if a person has been permitted to act a certain way, how are they expected to know their partner is experiencing something if the partner themself doesn't "realize" it?

This is not to say that an abuser doesnt know they are abusive, because I think they do. This is to say, for consistency sake, if it is true the abused is so unaware, can it be the abuser is also not always aware?

An abuser knows when he is being abusive, if he doesn't seek professional help, he will continue to be abusive in next relationship.
A woman being abused should separate herself ASAP.

Thank you. That is what I meant by this measure of what it means to 'realize' something, in terms of being accountable.

Abuse relationships, oh, a little like play boys, just for fun, sex, never thinking about taking charge and going away if them is tired of you.

You have a lot of very good responses to consider.
I'm curious why you are asking?

Are you trying to figure out if you were the abused, or the abuser?
Is your kid's mother trying to tell you that you abuse them so she won't let you see them or do you think she is abusing them and you are helpless to do anything about it because you don't think the kids know if they are being abused?

When I was raising my kids, if their grades were bad, they lost priveledges.
At the time, they might have thought they were being abused.
However, everytime their grades came up to average, they had their privledges restored. The lesson was learned.

There is no excuse for abusing the people you are supposed to love.
For an adult to take abuse from someone that is supposed to love them and do nothing, is insanity.

Well, given responses from other threads, I'd rather not say, seems either way some how it would make me look bad.

I don't think calling 911 FOR someone you love that is threatening to drink antifreeze is considered controlling and manipulative, especially after they grab a bottle. I don't think grabbing the bottle from them to prevent them from drinking it is abuse. It may not be the right decision, but I don't think it's necessarily wrong. I did what I had to do to prevent her from harming herself, I called 911, the police came and took her to the hospital, they shook my hand and thanked me for calling. I don't think they would have been so nice if I were being abusive.

I don't think it's abuse to call 911 again when a loved one gets upset and locks themself in the bathroom with a knife, especially after a history of dangerous behavior.

I don't think a child climbing on their mother and crying for their father when the mother takes the children away from home is indicative of child molestation.

Based on what you just wrote, I don't think someone with suicidal mental instability is a wise choice for raising toddlers.
I also don't know what inspired her to threaten to you to commit suicide not once but on two different occassions. Both of which were while you were present (according to the information you have given).

I do know suicidal mental issues first hand and I never needed anyone else present to stop me.
I also know that when faced with an abuser, or someone they might think of as an abuser, sometimes people will threaten suicide to try to make the abuse stop.

What to ask yourself is; Does she exhibit suicidal tendencies to other adults when you are not present. Her mother, her sibling, a neighbor?
If it is only when you are present indicates you are the contributing factor.

I suggest you take a hard look at the situation from all perspectives and choose wisely.
If she is unstable, your children are not safe when they are alone with her.
If she is only unstable when you are near her, you are the problem.
I wish you luck in figuring out the reality.

If she sees any kind of abuse while dating a man, get out Run.
That's what the dating process is for, avoiding any drama or abuse before going into Relationship. Imo

I agree
Mental abuse is much more common than one might think.
Chances are, commensurate to your inner circle size, chances are you are currently being mentally abused by someone you think you can trust.

Nobody on the planet sees the world thru your eyes.
Anyone that tries to tell you, persuade you to do something you don't want to do or think how you don't want to think is technically, mentally abusing you.
You are the ONLY authority on You.

She has a life long history of it. She was a cutter when she was younger. There has been incidents even after she left.

Now, she's with old friends, doing old things. Her so called good friends have been deemed by the state to be unfit parents themselves, yet to her it's ok to let them watch the children. They're active addicts and I would not let them anywhere near my children, especially not alone.


Then again, I'm just the father, I have no rights or say until a court tells me I do. Surprisingly, we do have a court date. We'll see what happens. I don't see anything promising happening.

I had someone I supposedly thought *I* could trust tell me once that I didn't deserve my late husband, so God took him away from me..
Of course, this person swears they never said any such a thing, and, if they *did*, they must have been drunk...

Whatever.

That, combined with their gaslighting....I decided to cut off contact with them..
To this day I'm sure they can't understand why...probably think i'm just one more crazy bi**h.....

Totage, I believe yer concern is valid.
I have experienced the type.
Make sure you have a good lawyer.
Make sure you document everything.
You can subpoena 911 call records too.
At least here in the states ya can.

The "push topic" needs to be the health and welfare of the children.
As a parent I don't need to tell you the children's welfare should be utmost important.

Make sure you have all your own ducks in order.
If there are issues with your past, address them right away.
Any ammo you give her lawyers is going to be a bullet in your soul.
Nobody is perfect.
Take a really hard look, get it all right again.
Give them no ammo to use against you.
Exploit all the ammo she gives you.

I lost everything to my X because her lawyers used all the ammo I ever left laying around and I didn't save any of her ammo.
I had trouble paying my lawyer on time, he did a haf-asd job.
Pay your lawyer.
Treat the judge and the court people with extra respect.
Keep yer wits about ya.
Good luck, Your children's lives are counting on you.

I seem to be learning that the abuse comes in many forms... whichever form it comes in.. you deserve better and need to.. exit stage right... or get counseling for the abuser.. so they never do it again good luck with that though

We are reasoning human beings.
What we see as 'obvious' isn't always clear to a victim of abuse.
Its the human quality that allows victims to remain victims.

Oh, they are not bad people, you don't know them like I know them.
If I just do this or that right, it will stop but I can't get it right so they HAVE to keep doing it because they love me and I love them.

While it might look like an easy fix of just walking away, victims enable the continuation in part, themselves.
For a victim to take a stand against abuse requires they find self-esteem and abusers are pretty effective at destroying that in their victims.
Hell, many abusers don't even see themselves as abusers.
They think of themselves as victims.
Having to constantly make them 'straighten up'.

Its a vicious circle and a very hard one to break then get on top of.
Plus, it happens slowly.
Its little things that establish the abuse that are readily dismissed as toleration or in the name of LOVE.

The abused often can't pinpoint one specific day or action that changed everything because there isn't, most of the time.

What helped me and may help others, is to understand that your life is only your life.
If it is not how you want it to be, only you can change it because it is, after all, your life.

I paid my lawyer up already, unless it goes to trial he's taken care of. I know the courts.

I'm not concerned about my past, it has been resolved even before our relationship. Her issues are certainly not resolved, current, and relevant to the case, it would be very foolish of her to try to use my past against me, you would think at least.

I have a conference appointment with my lawyer and a court date set, we'll see what happens.

Could abuse be something that is subjective to each individuals boundaries and strengths and weaknesses? Kind of like the idea of 'cheating'? In an open relationship, the parties are not being cheated on as there is no deception, or at least they would not say they were cheating or being cheated on. But in a relationship where monogamy is a clearly set boundary, such an action is definitely cheating.

I feel abuse is the same. I know it has become a cultural trend for people to be victims, but does a victim need to feel victimized, or is victimhood some objective definitive term that EVERYONE gets to determine for everyone else?

My belief is that it is subjective to one's own boundaries. And if one is not feeling victimized during an incident, they probably shouldnt expect the other party to feel like or know they are victimizing them. Manipulation, on the other hand, by definition, is not something someone might recognize until after the fact. But I still feel things like cheating and abuse are totally subjective in every relationship, and I also firmly believe it should be well communicated what those boundaries and feelings are before a party should be labeled victimizer.

That's pretty much what I was wondering.