Yeah... most people regard divorce as bad, sad, horrible stuff. I don't. Everything happens for a reason and there's always something to learn and there's always something positive to be found. You just need to look for it.

If I had stayed in my marriage (1st long relationship), I would not have learnt half the stuff I have learnt BECAUSE I got divorced!
The same thing with relationship no2.
Relationships shouldn't (be made to) last just because of societal expectation and pressure. As soon as a relationship isn't nurturing anymore, you have reached a stalemate. No more growth, no more developing, probably just stress, grieve, and unhappiness.
In my view it's a good thing to then end the relationship and move on. Find another partner at some point who offers more and new food for thought. More learning, growth etc.

People always fuss about children... but children are so resilient. If parents would deal with divorce in a good fashion, why should they suffer because of it? And that's where it goes wrong: with the parents' behaviour and hurt egos.

It's all a matter of perspective (and to be honest, of inner strength, the ability to stand on your own to feet, to make yourself happy regardless).
Isn't it WRONG to expect a relationship to last "till death do us part", isn't it WRONG to expect someone else to make you happy? It is wrong to have expectations of another? (and then get disappointed when they don't do what you want.)
To me it's about the intention to make it last, the intention to be happy, the intention to add something to each other's lives and so on.
So basically "Let's see if we can be happy together" as opposed to "till death do us part." That's a long, long time! You cannot control all the variables that will come your way.
Demanding someone to vow to stay with you till you die, is a fear based thing.
If everyone could ease up on this subject a bit more, and not see divorce as if it's major disaster and "my life is over!" and "God's wrath will be on you!", life on this planet would become so much better.

PS I still want a man to put the bin out on Tuesdays
and sex of course

THEY ARE VERY IMPORTANT

This gender issue is so real and so impactful. Many of the guys in this thread evaded my question concerning their thoughts on their contributions to their relationships as MEN. Many of them opted to joke about it, which i enjoyed because they really were funny ... but somehow i was getting a feeling that when i took the sex , procreation , and financial contributions out of there grasp, it was almost like they didn't seem know (or at least be able to express ) the OTHER invaluable qualities/ services they bring to the relationship/family. TMommy and Crystal fairy bullet-pointed men's virtues so seamlessly ie their affinity for logic, seeing the bigger picture, breaking things down into manageable bites, kick-az boldness , razor sharp focus, innate protectiveness, the ability to let arguments go, inclination towards promptness, powerfully affirming auras, optimism that things arent so bad. These traits commonly associated with men are INDISPENSIBLE to relationships and the home but yet men's contributions are constantly being downplayed. You see it clearly when contrasting the gratitude expression on fathers day vs mother's day. DO I NEED TO SAY MORE???? LOL.

It's more complicated and no doctor in the world is good enough to fix what's wrong. There is nothing short of a lobotomy that will help and what's the fun in that?

I think that kind of proves that many men are still fumbling their way through the process of empowerment ...
Not that we've finished it, cos as they fumble and learn, we have to change with them, like they had to when we started the process ourselves. So in that sense, it's beautiful, as we always support each other, willingly or not.

There are already quite a lot of men who are 'there', that get the picture. But those are usually the ones that don't speak up in topics like this.

Oh, and you know what ...
I'd so love to have such a man in my life, as my partner, who is wanting to give, protect, provide etc.
Not because I can't do it myself, we can all do things ourselves if need be. But because I can then finally be myself. Difficult to explain in text. It's not that I need someone in order to feel whole. It's that as a single woman I have to tap into (my) masculine energy a lot more than I would have to with a partner. I can feel that I am really longing to be able to be more feminine again. (Not talking about being giggly and all that 'outside' stuff. I'm talking about energetically.) So in that sense, longing to be able to be me again. Having to tap in to masculine energy so often, is starting to feel like a burden. Because I simply am not a man.

Mmmmm... new insight for me. I love this discussion! Such in depth exchanges can be so tremendously insightful!

Which raises a new question: Are we actually truly whole when single?
I don't think that is possible in this society as of yet ...

I got it good know women in my home

Demanding someone to vow to stay with you till you die, is a fear based thing.
If everyone could ease up on this subject a bit more, and not see divorce as if it's major disaster and "my life is over!" and "God's wrath will be on you!", life on this planet would become so much better.



I think there is a broader context for viewing the marriage issue though. A marriage is a promise and its one of the few promises that millions make involving the government , ur significant other and god for those who believe in god. Treating that lightly to me is breach of integrity, i am not suggesting that people should sacrifice their health , wealth and sanity in the name of keeping a promise. I am just saying that people should think loooooong and haaaaaaaard before making that promise and exhaust all options available within reason.before opting for divorce because the larger issue for me is the integrity of trying to keep a sacred promise. Too often i see people discard thst commitment because of unrealistic expectations. If a person commits to 50 years with another person, they have to have the common sense to know that they will go through a number of crappy years . Most of the couples with long term seemingly happy marriages have confided in me that they went through months and years at a time of enmity with their partner but they kept working and got through the storm . Does that sound romantic. ? No it doesnt but its the reality. The payoff is when u mutually come out on the other side of adversity with a deeper respect and affection for yor mate. Anyone who is not prepared to put up with some crappy years in a 50 year span with another human being SHOULD NOT GET MARRIED, but once they do, then every effort should be made to save a troubled union via counselling, martiage retreats and seminars ,.romantic getaways and even taking breaks from each other when necessary to avoid killing each other, but i do not condone quitting after half-azzed attempts. I know my view is unpopular but it is what it is

I would say everybody need a partner , we can only avoid or shy away from the fact that we don't

Often times we are hurt and there comes this moment of hesitations still won't won't give up on our quest.
Women are more needed in a home than for sex and procreations, God know why Eve was create along with Adam (for the Christians)
A home wouldn't be 100% complete if the spices of women are lacking (I've been there )
From this stand point I think I agree with some of y'all and probably there's a shifting ground with others.

I also love when men do those traditionally manly things for me crystal but in my experience , some guys use that as a crutch for not having time to do the other thingd that i crave. Talk a long walk with me. Lets have breakfast at that quaint coffee lounge together . Lets just talk... Oops! I thinkni just described s date with a woman. Lol . But my point is, i dont want my mate hiding behind his manly services and using it as an excuse to not do stuff we could enjoy together . I am sure a few mutual non -sexual activities could be negotiated . But ofcourse i will make it worth his while afterward . Muah-ha-haaaaa!!!..

BUT i do get what you say about yearning for the man to take over the task centred stuff and yeah it really is a burden sometimes but I dont want it if it comes at the expense of the quality time that i need with him .

Ps: i dont believe anyone who is wired for a relationship will ever feel whole as a single person. However i also think that a fulfilling relationship IN ITSELF can NOT make you whole. We are too multifaceted as humans to feel whole, when only filling up one part of ourselves

I've had 2 long term relationships

The first, I was the leading role, not really by choice but without me, nothing was ever decided on, kinda like constant limbo or stagnation so I would always take the initiative and plan stuff for us to do. Of course I'd be the one to blame if things went sideways


The second, I was the supporting cast, the family fireman, always putting out the fires(so to speak) created by a scattered and flippant personality who took on too much only to fumble things up constantly.


Polyvalence, yea that's it, I bring Polyvalence to the table!



I don't put up with dramatic scenes very well now, it's all manipulation and I'll have none of it in my relationships. I may come across as uncaring over petty stuff but I'm on the ball with everything else.

Well we havent been talking about the roles of women . The focus is on men but i agree with you that women have worth in the home and yes. Many people do need a partner but some are really very happy by themselves and that should be celebrated too.:)

No one likes to be alone and that is why you are also in this dating site. I hope all are looking for a right person just becoz of this reason

funny to me..as an older observer that women ..were so ghung ho to go out and prove that they could do it all, take on a career and kids

that in some ways, some women have taken over these more masculine qualities whether they be a good fit or not
and these women would only accept a man in their lives that did the traditional feminine role at home.." oh Michael, he cooks and cleans. I have him well trained

entire generations of these kind of flip flop of roles

but yet I see...women complaining now
that their husbands are anxiety ridden
that they get upset easily, cry too much
that they have to be reassured constantly
too needy, too clingy

do I see it balancing out? not yet



Agreed TMommy. At some point i , this gender equality fight which afforded us so many advantages kinda messed up our organic balance. Often women feel over worked and overwhelmed and guys are feeing imasculated and downright confused. We cant be asking for the benefits that a man gets without being subjected to some of the grit thy are reqired to.endure. And we also cannot expect men to assume more of the nurturing roles traditionally associated with women.and then shun.them because we now think they are too sensitive. We cant ravage the pulp of the fruit and without having to deal with those annoying little seeds. Blurred gender lines had somehow evolved into blurred vision

funny to me..as an older observer that women ..were so ghung ho to go out and prove that they could do it all, take on a career and kids

that in some ways, some women have taken over these more masculine qualities whether they be a good fit or not
and these women would only accept a man in their lives that did the traditional feminine role at home.." oh Michael, he cooks and cleans. I have him well trained

entire generations of these kind of flip flop of roles

but yet I see...women complaining now
that their husbands are anxiety ridden
that they get upset easily, cry too much
that they have to be reassured constantly
too needy, too clingy

do I see it balancing out? not yet



Agreed TMommy. At some point i , this gender equality fight which afforded us so many advantages kinda messed up our organic balance. Often women feel over worked and overwhelmed and guys are feeing imasculated and downright confused. We cant be asking for the benefits that a man gets without being subjected to some of the grit thy are reqired to.endure. And we also cannot expect men to assume more of the nurturing roles traditionally associated with women.and then shun.them because we now think they are too sensitive. We cant ravage the pulp of the fruit and without having to deal with those annoying little seeds. Blurred gender lines had somehow evolved into blurred vision

Wow! I leave for a minute and this topic is exploding lol. Now to follow-up

First let me say I added back in my original quote above(in bold), because I believe it is relevant. Now I will answer the question.



My original post was designed to show that if you attach a specific 'external' value to a person via 'gender-roles' than you could easily come to the conclusion that women of previous generations were pretty worthless, with the exception of sex, and procreation.

So if you weren't planning on having children why even bother with a relationship...after all they brought no 'value' to the table.

I put 'value' in quotes for a reason. Women(and men) of this generation have defined what it means to 'be a man' on external variables..such as bread-winner, handy-man, or mechanic. All of these are jobs and skills that anyone can learn, male or female, however because they were traditionally male, people come to view them as 'masculine' and that one demonstrating these skills is now somehow 'manly', and that if a woman can do these skills better than the man in her life it is 'emasculating' and he 'loses 'value' as a man'.

The reason I put 'value' in quotes is because what one chooses to value will vary in person to person. Some women honestly believe that a man's only value is external, and if they are no longer needed for those functions...then they are obviously not worth much..at least to that woman.

I don't believe the women of previous generations were worthless, men needed those women for their INTERNAL qualities that are usually inherent to women, soft-natured, caring, and even motherly, of course there are many others, this is just a sample. While a man can posses these qualities, generally they are more 'natural' to women. These qualities were necessary to balance out men's more natural inherent qualities.

Some of the more natural qualities men possess are aggression(which isn't always a bad thing), instinctively protective, directness, physical dominance, and even a desire for a power(which again isn't a bad thing).

My point is, that men and women compliment each others nature from internal, not external qualities. Unfortunately they're many women who don't understand their, and are often confused at even their own behavior. There are examples of this everywhere.

While in society are external dynamics are shifting our internal natures have remained the same, and some of our most primal needs are based on the needs of our body. Some believe that you are your brain, however, your brain is actually a tool for your body, and not the other way around, your body always wins in a 'contest-of-wills'. Don't believe me? tell your body not to pee for a month..or even a week. (your body will win..guaranteed lol).

So regardless of what society currently defines as 'gender-roles' our internal qualities and biology will still decide what we want in a mate, and in a relationship. Even if sometimes logically it makes no sense. For example, many women say that men who are 'attracted to power' are 'undesirable'.

However, show me a man in a powerful position and I'll show you a gorgeous woman standing next to him,(regardless if he is attractive or not).

Many women say they want a 'nice guy', but still wind up in relationships over and over with the 'bad boy'. They honestly don't know why. I mean logically it makes sense to be with a 'nice-guy' but it's the 'bad-boys' that make them swoon...why? Could it be that the 'bad-boys' possess more natural 'internal' masculine traits? Are the bad-boys normally more aggressive? dominant? physically strong? powerful?.

My point in all the rambling above, is what makes a man valuable is not what he does for a living, how much money he makes, or even what kind of car he drives. What makes a man valuable as a man are the internal masculine characteristics that he displays.

Sorry that you had such a hard time john and i understand your decision to protect yourself from the drama in your life. All of us have developped defensive strategies against a number of ills. i guess your challenge will be to find a balance in how you protect yourself from drama while still letting your girl know that you truly care about the little things that matter to her and hopefully she will do the same for you. And i guess u are looking for a balanced partnership too. With the next female where you are not totally leading or not totally following. Thank s for your contribution john and Good luck to you

Well I think every woman knows why a man is required in their life and I am sure you also know the reason. Lot of women in this thread have mentioned it even in bullet points
Men play many roles in a woman life like a father, friend, partner, son, etc
Every role has its own importance. Anyway I think the question in your mind is related to role of a husband so let me also try some bullet points

1. Keeps all your secrets even sexual ones. Women share between them everything but men don`t share especially the sexual stuff.
2. Helps making decisions for you. It is quite normal for women to be confused with choices or options or ideas and there comes the man in picture.
3. Protect and makes you feel safe (most places)
4. Makes you laugh and cry alot
5. Physical and emotional support. Well you get that from women too but you know the difference when your man gives it to you.

There are many others too but I don`t like to write so much. I have seen many women saying that they are happy alone but still as soon as they find a right guy all their happiness gets attached to that guy.

Odd things you come up with ...

1 is nothing whatsoever to do with 'doing something for a woman', it's to do with how men are wired. It's more to do with keeping your own secrets, not ours.

2 very patronizing view. We are not simpletons. This is exactly the obsolete old-fashioned view that we have to get rid of if we want to get somewhere as a species

4 not gender related at all

5 like you say: women give that too. Very much so.
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