So what would you say to a fellow Pagan who doesn't follow what you consider to be a Holy Law? Would you consider such a Pagan as a bad person who practices "dark" arts?

Then I guess it's say to assume you are an Eclectic Pagan then. lol

If you are referring to TV shows like "Charmed" and "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" or movies like "The Craft" I'm not offended one bit. Anyone who wishes to believe what is portrayed in Hollyweird as truth are as ignorant as those newbies to Wicca, Witchcraft, and Paganism, who we call fluffy bunnies, who believe such things are a "how to" guide to Wicca. In today's day and age there is plenty of access to information concerning the truth about such religious and spiritual beliefs and practices.

May I ask you what makes it a Holy Law?

I'm not a Wiccan. I'm a Pagan and a Witch.

Do you have a question, goofy? Feel free to ask.

Main Entry: 1rede
Pronunciation: 'rEd
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English -- more at READ
1 archaic : to give counsel to : ADVISE
2 archaic : INTERPRET, EXPLAIN

Main Entry: 2rede
Function: noun
1 archaic : COUNSEL, ADVICE
2 archaic : ACCOUNT, STORY


The Wiccan Rede
Full Version

Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust.
Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.

For tread the Circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out.
To bind the spell well every time, let the spell be said in rhyme.

Light of eye and soft of touch, speak you little, listen much.
Honor the Old Ones in deed and name,
let love and light be our guides again.

Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out the joyful tune.
Widdershins go when the moon doth wane,
and the werewolf howls by the dread wolfsbane.

When the Lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to Her times two.
When the moon rides at Her peak then your heart's desire seek.

Heed the North winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail.
When the Wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss you on the mouth.
When the wind whispers from the West, all hearts will find peace and rest.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow.
Birch in the fire goes to represent what the Lady knows.

Oak in the forest towers with might, in the fire it brings the God's
insight. Rowan is a tree of power causing life and magick to flower.

Willows at the waterside stand ready to help us to the Summerland.
Hawthorn is burned to purify and to draw faerie to your eye.

Hazel-the tree of wisdom and learning adds its strength to the bright fire burning.
White are the flowers of Apple tree that brings us fruits of fertility.

Grapes grow upon the vine giving us both joy and wine.
Fir does mark the evergreen to represent immortality seen.

Elder is the Lady's tree burn it not or cursed you'll be.
Four times the Major Sabbats mark in the light and in the dark.

As the old year starts to wane the new begins, it's now Samhain.
When the time for Imbolc shows watch for flowers through the snows.

When the wheel begins to turn soon the Beltane fires will burn.
As the wheel turns to Lamas night power is brought to magick rite.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall use the Sun to mark them all.
When the wheel has turned to Yule light the log the Horned One rules.

In the spring, when night equals day time for Ostara to come our way.
When the Sun has reached it's height time for Oak and Holly to fight.

Harvesting comes to one and all when the Autumn Equinox does fall.
Heed the flower, bush, and tree by the Lady blessed you'll be.

Where the rippling waters go cast a stone, the truth you'll know.
When you have and hold a need, harken not to others greed.

With a fool no season spend or be counted as his friend.
Merry Meet and Merry Part bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow.

Be true in love this you must do unless your love is false to you.

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

Written by Adriana Porter and was published by Lady Gwen Thompson (Adriana Porter's Granddaughter) in The Green Egg magazine in 1975


The Wiccan Rede
Short Version, Most Commonly Used

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"



This short phrase has a long and rich history. Gerald Gardner started the first official Tradition of Wicca called Gardnerian Wicca. Prior to Gerald Gardner's third book "The Meaning of Witchcraft," published in 1959, Gardner did not discuss ethics. In "The Meaning of Witchcraft" Gardner says,

"(Witches) are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, 'Do what you like so long as you harm no one' But they believe a certain law to be important, "You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm."

The Good King Pausol was a character in the book called "The Adventures of King Pausole" published in 1901 by Pierre Louÿs. More specifically the line that Gardner was referring to out of the book, "The Adventures of King Pausole" was, "Do no wrong to thy neighbor. Observing this, do as thou pleasest." Some believe that Gardner was influenced by the older Law of Thelema created by Aleister Crowley, however, this has been up for debate for a long time now.

Now enter in Doreen Valiente. The short form wiccan rede was first publically mentioned in a speech by Doreen Valiente on October 3, 1964 at what may have been the first witches' dinner organized in modern history. The event was sponsored by Pentagram, a quarterly newsletter and "witchcraft review" started and published by Gerard Noel in 1964. Doreene Valiente's Wiccan Rede quote was also published in volume one (1964) of the Pentagram, the UK newsletter that hosted the event and as will be discussed later was subsequently published beween circa 1965 and 1966 in the United States in The Waxing Moon newsletter. In 1965 the Rede was again quoted without references in Justine Glass' book Witchcraft, The Sixth Sense.

Some believe that Gardner wrote the eight word Wiccan Rede. Others believe that Doreene Valiente, who edited a lot of Gardner's work, wrote it using his work. To me, personally, it doesn't matter who wrote it. To some it's really important and makes for some heated debates.

As I mentioned above the word Rede means counsel or advice. Simply put you can lead a horse to water but you can make the horse drink the water. Just because counsel or advice is given doesn't mean it's going to be taken and used. Notice that in the quote above from Gardner's book "The Meaning of Witchcraft" he says they (witches) are INCLINED to the morality, he doesn't say that they are BOUND.

Gerald Gardner had 161 Laws called the Old Laws or The Ardane for all those who were Gardnerian Wiccans. Since that one tradition of Wicca was started many others have followed, some taking with them some of the laws others leaving the laws behind others taking the laws and adding to them, etc. Today, most Wiccans do not follow all 161 of these Laws. Wicca has evolved. Much like Christianity has evolved. Christianity certainly is not the same today as it was when it first began. The Wiccan Rede is not a Law and was never a Law. It is however, wise advice and good counsel for when you practice magick.

The rule of three... are you referring to the Wiccan Rede? As I understand it not all Pagans and Witches acknowledge this rule of three because it's a Wiccan concept. Yes, many Witches and Pagans believe in Karma, what goes around comes around, the Golden Rule, ect. but those are basic morals that many individuals have no matter their religious/spiritual beliefs. However, in working with the darker aspects of magick as you say you do, I'm sure you already know that we can't go through life without harming someone, directly or indirectly. Personally when it comes right down to it, I'm out to protect my children, my loved ones, and myself from those who may want to harm us, slander us, or cause us trouble. Magickally speaking, in protecting us if I happen to harm someone, then that's the way it must be, I'm ready to live the reprecussions of my actions if theres any at all. But I for one will not be chained to the dogma called the rule of three, a.k.a. The Wiccan Rede... besides... I'm not a Wiccan. lol

Interesting. I'm interested in what you consider to be "dark" magick. I ask because it is my personal belief that Magick itself is neither "dark" (a.k.a. black) or "white." I believe what is either "good" or "bad" is the intent of the practioner of the magick. Magick is merely the tool. Intent is the key. However, I also personally believe that there is darkness (evil) and light (good) within each of us. I believe that for us to have a healthy soul we must keep a balance between the "dark" and the "light" within us. Tip the scales too far either way and it makes for an unhealthy soul. So, I'm very interested in reading what you believe "dark" magick to be.

I've very much aware of the Greek Myths... as well as the Roman, Norse, Egyptians, ect. As a Pagan I'm very much into mythology.

There's no such word that I'm familar with.

From the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary

Main Entry: Pro·me·the·an
Pronunciation: \prə-ˈmē-thē-ən\
Function: adjective
Date: 1594
: of, relating to, or resembling Prometheus, his experiences, or his art; especially : daringly original or creative

Main Entry: pro·me·thi·um
Pronunciation: \-thē-əm\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Latin Prometheus
Date: 1948
: a radioactive metallic element of the rare-earth group obtained as a fission product of uranium or from neutron-irradiated neodymium — see element table

Do you mean "promethean" or "promethium?"

Ok he sounds like a very little kid... and he "put down the calf" himself?! Poor kid! What parent makes their son go out to the barn and "put down" a calf that their son obviosly loves?! I think the bigger messagge here is save children from stupid and cruel parents!

In my experience with dealing with those who oppose my religious/spiritual beliefs (mainly Christians) and in my experience of being a fanatical fundamentalist Christian myself for 10 years, I've learned a few things.

When such people oppose me, they believe they are right no matter what I say or do. They believe that their religious/spiritual beliefs are the only way to God. They believe that all other religious/spiritual beliefs, no matter how benign, is of Satan and will lead a person straight to the pits of Hell. They believe it is their God given duty to proselytize those who don't believe as they do. Some even believe that they have to proselytize so that when they stand before their God in heaven one day, their God will not be able to accuse them of have the blood of another person on their hands. They plant the "seed of Faith" into the hearts of the non-believers in hopes that one day someone else will water that seed and it will grow and that non-believer will be "saved."

How can you debate (argue) or inform people like this? It's simple... you can't. They are right... you are "lost" in need of "saving" and it's their God given duty to spread "the good news." I used to be just like this. I was a sheep blindly following and doing exactly what I was told to do no questions asked. I'm so glad I've evolved spiritually.

Occassionally you will find someone who is openminded enough to understand that one doesn't have to compromise their own beliefs just by learning about other's beliefs. Occassionally you will find someone with enough intelligence to understand that proselytizing doesn't really "bring 'em in" but rather pushes them away. Occassionally you will find someone who is openminded enough to accept individuals as they are, no matter how different their beliefs are from one's own. Such openminded individuals are few and far between, though.

There is obviously a huge problem here in this Religious forum between Christians and non-Christians. We are supposed to be adults here. When are we going to start acting like it?

So, how do ya'll propose we resolve these issues we have here on this forum? How can we coexist without tearing eachother apart? Or am I just a dreamer wishing for the impossible.

Just so everyone understands, I know that I'm not an innocent angel. There are times when I get enjoyment out of taking a stick and poking the sheep every once in a while. I admit, they annoy me... mainly because they remind me of how stupid I used to be. I'm human, I admit I have flaws. But something's got to give here in these forums. This can't go on forever, can it?

At any rate, Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

... then you have no sense of humor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&mode=related&search

I'm not suggesting anything. I have presented information I believe to be interesting. I have not once stated anything that you are suggesting. Please stop trying to argue with me. I don't wish to argue. You can believe in whatever you wish to believe in. But please stop coming in here trying to get a rise out of me. It won't work.

That's as far as I read when I decided that I didn't really need to read any further. I'm not here to "argue" or even to "debate" (which to me is just another word that basically means to argue). I'm here sharing things that I find interesting. I'm simply sharing information. Just because I share them doesn't mean I necessarily believe them as truthes or even as falsehoods. It simply means I find them interesting. Have fun arguing with no one because I refuse to join in.

Jesus and Buddha:
The Parallel Sayings

Are there universal truths? If we compare the sayings of Jesus and Buddha the answer is a heartfelt yes.

Buddhism and Christianity would appear to have little in common. One is non-theistic for instance, the other, theistic. But the sayings of Jesus and the Buddha, whose teachings gave rise to the two religions are another matter. They have much in common in the realms of ethical behavior, discipleship, compassion, materialism and the inner life. The following are some examples.
Reprinted from "Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings" edited by Marcus Borg, published by Ulysses Press



Jesus: "Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31

Buddha: "Consider others as yourself." Dhammapada 10:1



Jesus: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also." Luke 6:29

Buddha: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon any desires and utter no evil words." Majjhima Nikaya 21:6



Jesus: "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." Matthew 25:45

Buddha: "If you do not tend to one another, then who is there to tend you? Whoever would tend me, he should tend the sick." Vinaya, Mahavagga 8:26.3



Jesus: "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." Matthew 26:52

Buddha: "Abandoning the taking of life, the ascetic Gautama dwells refraining from taking life, without stick or sword." Digha Nikaya 1:1.8



Jesus: "Those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it." Mark 8:35

Buddha: "With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging." Majjhima Nikaya 72:15



Jesus: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you." Matthew 28:19-20

Buddha: "Teach the dharma which is lovely at the beginning, lovely in the middle, lovely at the end. Explain with the spirit and the letter in the fashion of Brahma. In this way you will be completely fulfilled and wholly pure." Vinaya Mahavagga 1:11.1

from "Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings" by Marcus Borg

The Parallel Lives of Jesus and Buddha

Scholars see strong parallels in both the myth and life of the Buddha and Jesus. Buddha and his disciples traveled extensively going into homes and "preaching the gospels to those who would hear," is one obvious parallel of a literary motif not found in other traditions. Jesus also pursues this form of preaching and teaching.

Ernest De Bunsen states, "With the remarkable exception of the death of Jesus on the cross, and of the doctrine of atonement by vicarious suffering, which is absolutely excluded by Buddhism, the most ancient of the Buddhistic records known to us contain statements about the life and the doctrines of Gautama Buddha which correspond in a remarkable manner, and impossibly by mere chance, with the traditions recorded in the Gospels about the life and doctrines of Jesus Christ...."

The Parallel Lives of Jesus and Buddha

Buddha the new born prince is adored and predicted by seer Asita and gods celebrate his birth.(SN 3.11 Nalaka Sutta)
Jesus the new born prince is adored and predicted by seers "from the east" who celebrate the newborn king. (Matthew 2)

Buddhist Trinity (Tiratna) and Baptism: "I take refuge, Lord, in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha." (DN 31) "Enough, I say, with this external bath. I am satisfied with this internal bath: confidence in the Blessed One." (SN 55.30 Licchavi Sutta)
Jesus Trinity and Baptism: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

Buddha is Sinless: "Stainless, you illuminate all the worlds." Sn 2.14 Dhammika Sutta
Jesus is Sinless: "And in him is no sin." (1 John 3:5)

Buddha: Nirvana is Deathless" (Dhammapada 2:21-23)
Jesus: God gave us everlasting life. (1 John 5:11)

Buddha holds nothing back: There is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. (Digha Nikaya, Mahaparinibbana Sutta,32)
Jesus holds nothing back: Because a slave doesn't know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything I have heard from My Father. (John 15:15)

Chosen ones of Buddha The Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes (Samyutta Nikaya 6.1 Ayacana Sutta) He has long had little dust in his eyes. What if I were to teach him the Dhamma first? (MN 26 Ariyapariyesana Sutta)
Chosen ones of Jesus You did not choose Me, but I chose you. (John 15:16) (Matthew 9: 35 - 10: 8, Mark 3: 13 - 19, Luke 6: 12 - 18)

Buddha and the Evil One Then Mara, the Evil One, knowing with his awareness the train of thought in the Blessed One's awareness, went to him and on arrival said to him: "Exercise rulership, Blessed One! Exercise rulership, O One Well-gone!
Mara leaves Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "The Blessed One knows me; the One Well-gone knows me" — vanished right there. (Samyutta Nikaya 4.20 Rajja Sutta)

Jesus and Satan: And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours."
Satan leaves And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time. (Luke 4:1)

Buddha is the Truth and the Law: "He who sees the Dhamma, he sees me; he who sees me, sees the Dhamma. "Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhaa-vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch 4, 87, Vakkali Sutta)
Jesus is the Truth and the Law: Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)


Buddha tells us to "come and see" the Dhamma or truth, which is the Buddha...In the Six Characteristics of the Dharma or the "law," the fourth one is "Ehipashyaka" or, "Come and See".
Jesus tells us "come and see" his true dwelling, Jesus is the truth: "They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour. "John 1:35-39, John 1:43-46.

Buddha lectures priest on bloodless sacrifice: "But, Reverend Gotama, is there any sacrifice that is more profitable than these four?" "There is, Brahmin." "What is it, Reverend Gotama?" "Brahmin, if anyone with a pure heart undertakes the precepts - to refrain from taking life, from taking what is not given, from sexual immorality, from lying speech and from taking strong drink and sloth-producing drugs - that constitutes a sacrifice more profitable than any of these four." (Kutadanta Sutta)
Jesus lectures priest (Sadducees) on bloodless sacrifice: And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." (Mark 12:33)

Buddha calls priests blind O Vasettha, those brahmins who know the three Vedas are just like a line of blind men tied together where the first sees nothing, the middle man nothing, and the last sees nothing (Tevijja-Sutta, Dighanikaya, 13:15).
Jesus calls priests (Pharisees) blind Can the blind lead the blind? Won't they both fall into a pit? (Matthew 15:14).

Buddha sends missionaries "Go forth, o bhikkhus (disciples), for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, for the good, for the happiness of gods and men. Let not two go by one way. Preach the doctrine that is beautiful in its beginning, beautiful in its middle, and beautiful in its ending. Declare the holy life in its purity, completely both in the spirit and the letter.[Mahavagga Ch 5, Vinaya Pitaka]"
Jesus sends missionaries Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (Matthew 28:19).

Buddha helps outcasts (Thag 12.2), lepers (Ud 5.3) and the courtesan like Ambapali (Digha Nikaya 16: Maha-parinibbana Sutta)
Jesus helps outcasts the poor and lepers (Luke 17:11-19) tax gatherers and prostitutes (Luke 7:36-50)

God appoints Buddha: God the creator: "Throw open the door to the Deathless! Let them hear the Dhamma realized by the Stainless One! [Ariyapariyesana Sutta]
God appoints Jesus: He hath anointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, And He began to say unto them, "This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears." (Luke 4:21)

Buddha declares: Open are the doors to the Deathless to those with ears. Let them show their conviction.[Ariyapariyesana Sutta]
Christ declares after defeating Satan: Repent! for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. —Matthew 4:17 Anyone who has ears to hear ought to hear." (Mark 4:23)

Buddha can walk on water and walk through walls: He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. (Digha Nikaya 11:Kevatta Sutta)
Jesus can walk on water and walk through walls: And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. Mat 14:25 "Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them." (John 20:26)

Buddha and the Cross: "This, monks, is called a monk whose cross-bar is thrown off, whose moat is filled in, whose pillar is pulled out, whose bolt is withdrawn, a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered. (Majjhima Nikaya 22:Alagaddupama Sutta I 139-140)
Jesus and the Cross: And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:27)

Buddha and the Sacrifice: This Purusa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be; (Rig Veda Purusha Sukta) Buddha is known as the MAHA PURUSHA. This Purusha is a human sacrifice or Purushamedha, from which all creation comes forth. "Maha -Purusha" in the Pali canon, the Digha Nikaya, in the discourse titled "Sutra of the Marks" (Pali: Lakkhana Sutta).Griffith (1899)

"man, the noblest victim, being actually or symbolically sacrificed ... and men and women of various tribes, figures, complexions, characters, and professions being attached to the sacrificial stakes in place of the tame and wild animals enumerated in Book XXIV [VS 24]. These nominal victims were afterwards released uninjured, and, so far as the text of the White Yajurveda goes, the whole ceremony was merely emblematical."

The ceremony evokes the mythical sacrifice of Purusha, the "Cosmic Man," and the officiating Brahman recites the Purusha sukta to the assembled human victims (RV 10.90 = AVS 5.19.6 = VS 31.1–16). From the body of the Purusha all things come forth.

Jesus and the Sacrifice: All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1) "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1)

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. (1cor 12:12)

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Christianity

For your enjoyment and enlightenment...

http://www.scientology.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8057_1.html