Aye... put the balance of the original intent of congress back into our election system.

Congress is the House of the People.

However the Senate was originally supposed to represent the 'landholders' interests... i.e in this day and age this would be 'Corporate' america...

It BALANCES the three legged chair.

Yet at some point in the past the current government (at the time) made Senators stand for general election just as a Congressional
Represenative must.

Perhaps we should change that back.

I believe my chair will be able to continue to withstand my weight. This belief is based on faith, I do not come in each morning and test the chair to make sure it can continue to bear my weight. I know that it is possible for it to fail, and yet I continue to trust that it will. I have absolutely no data to back up my belief, and just becuase it has stood up previously does not mean it will continue to withstand it, which makes this belief a faith based belief. Even if I never considered this, the act of sitting confirms my belief. I would never sit on something I did not believe would hold my weight . .. bad back and all its contra to my survival.

Why do I believe this, why do I place my trust in this, why is it faith?

Because it is practical to do so and that is why most of the things we believe are held to be true and many times on nothing than faith.

Each morning my faith in my chair is reinforced as I sit down and do not fall to the ground under a chair that has failed to carry my weight. Is it reasonable, yes, is it rational, yes, is it faith, yes.

Faith does not have to be irrational, it can be reasonable. If someone was to tell me that this model of chair has been known to fail after a certain time, or under certain weight conditions which I exceed, and has documentation to show me this, and then this data removes my faith in the chair that would be rational as well. THAT is where I feel the distinction with religion comes in, that when tested against reality and shown to lack substance, or to even be against the laws of physics, or for rules to be contradictory ect, the religious step over the rational/reasonable threshold into an area of unreasonable faith, irrational faith.

So like I said, I feel like myself and creative are just breaking down these concepts into smaller pieces, and I know we both feel that we gain a clearer picture because of this reduction, becuase of this granular approach. This is not about being right or wrong, its about seeing more clearly, being able to make sense of the components of a moving system. A black and white static approach can never capture the details of a moving system with so many parts.

It makes me think of the project I am helping test right now, we are working on cardiology software . . . a single picture does no good neither does a thousand still pictures, you need to see the heart beating and interacting with the rest of the chest cavity to get a clear picture of function.

You may be right...but, if we do nothing...nothing will happen! Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

The congress ain't the only branch of government that is bought.

Guess what group has raised the most money for Obamas re election?

Securities and Investments..

What a surprise..

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/bundlers.php?id=N00009638

the movements that occured in the 60's were movements necessary for the health of our country in the future... The only person I know personally that makes 250 Thousand or better WORKS 16 hours a day or more (so now you want to STEAL his work).

How dare you compare this political stunt with those movements.

How dare those people that organized these things compare themselves and their 'agenda' to ANY right action...

Like the Arab Spring, (to remove a repressive regime(s))... A RIGHT action.

We are the US OF A...

You got a problem with the governemt? VOTE to change it.

Or open an office and RUN FOR Congress to change it.

But don't blow no sunshine up my dark places to further a political agenda.

Wow, no wonder we're in this massive political, financial mess. In case you haven't noticed, ignorance is not creating bliss in America!

Just got home fr www.occupyseattle.org after 5 hours of protesting! GREAT group of diverse folks downtown today! I am glad I went! I met a lot of cool people!

Well, hopefully the protestors can overwhelm the police peacefully by sheer press of numbers alone eventually!


F the speculators. F the global exchange. and F the WORLD BANK!

COMMUNITY/LABOR MARCH TO WALL ST.
Share • Public Event
Time Wednesday, October 5 • 4:30pm - 7:30pm
________________________________________
Location City Hall, 250 Broadway
________________________________________
Created By Beyond May 12

________________________________________
More Info Union workers and community members impacted by the economic crisis have been demanding that Wall Street and the wealthiest New Yorker's pay their fair share of taxes.

Let's march down to Wall Street to welcome the protesters and show the faces of New Yorkers hardest hit by corporate greed.

Sponsored By:
United NY
Strong Economy for All Coalition
Working Families Party,
VOCAL-NY
Community Voices Heard
Alliance for Quality Education
New York Communities for Change
Coalition for the Homeless
Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP)
TWU Local 100
The Job Party
NYC Coalition for Educational Justice
The Mirabal Sisters Cultural and Community Center
The New Deal for New York Campaign
National People's Action
ALIGN
Human Services Council
Labor-Religion Coalition of New York State
Citizen Action of NY
MoveOn.org
SEIU 1199
CWA 1109

Yes, over 100 cities in the United States have joined the Occupy Movement. Check out this page to plug into your area. Please be true to the name and take over space and Occupy! Even for a few hours.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/OccupyTogether
Community Occupy Puerto Rico
Community Occupy Arcata
Community Occupy Evansville
Community Occupy COMO
Community Occupy Columbia
Non-Profit Organization Occupy Miami
Organization Occupy Albany NY
Community Organization Occupy Spokane
Community Occupy Louisville
Community Asheville Day of Solidarity
Community Occupy Buffalo
Community Organization Occupy Arkansas
Community Occupy Richmond
Cause Occupy Santa Cruz
Community OccupyMaine
Community Occupy Charlotte
Political Organization #OccupySF
Community Organization Occupy Birmingham
Community Occupy Denver
Community Occupy the London Stock Exchange
Community Occupy OSU (Oklahoma State University)
Community OccupyjaxFL
Community Occupy Europe
Community Organization #OccupyYoungstown
Community Occupy Columbus
Community Occupy Binghamton
Community Occupy Cincinnati
Community Occupy Omaha
Community Organization Occupy Pittsburgh
Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) Occupy San Francisco
Community Organization Occupy New Orleans
Cause Occupy San Diego
Community Occupy North Georgia
Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) Occupy SLC
Cause OccupySTL
Community Organization Occupy Nashville
Community OCCUPY ATLANTA
Community Occupy Michigan
Community Occupy Tulsa
Political Organization Occupy Financial District SF
Community Occupy Sacramento
Community Occupy Dallas
Organization #OWSNashville
Community OccupySacramento
Community Occupy San Jose
Community Occupy Nebraska
Community Occupy Philadelphia
Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) Occupy Tampa
Community Organization Occupy Houston
Community #OccupyX
Community Occupy Boston
Community Occupy Florida
Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) Occupy Seattle
Community Organization Carpool to #Occupy Wallstreet
Community "Occupy Wall Street" Protest support in Phoenix
Community Occupy Chicago
Community OccupyMN
Political Organization Occupy Toronto Market Exchange
Cause #OCCUPYDC Oct. 6, 2011
Community Occupy Los Angeles
Community #OccupyCleveland
Cause #OccupyPhoenix
• Non-Governmental Organization (NGO)

More than 700 people were arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday evening during a march by anti-Wall Street protesters who have been occupying a downtown Manhattan square for two weeks.
The group, called Occupy Wall Street, has been protesting against the finance industry and other perceived social ills by camping out in Zuccotti park in New York.

The protests have spread across the country, with events popping up in Boston, Chicago and dozens of other cities across the country in solidarity with Occupy Wall Street.

In Albuquerque, N.M., there were more than 500 protestors, and demonstrators in Spokane, Wash., set up a tent city before police enforced a no-camping rule.

A march and rally was held in Boston Friday called “Take Back Boston” run by the Right to the City alliance, a national organization that “seeks to create regional and national impacts in the fields of housing, human rights, urban land, community development, civic engagement, criminal justice, environmental justice, and more,” according to its website.

Police estimated about 3,000 people attended the events Friday.
“We are targeting Wall Street, in particular the big banks and corporations,” Rachel Laforest, the executive director of the Right to the City Alliance told ABC News. “The goal is to create a national narrative and have it be known how the states are taking state revenues that are being funneled to banks and corporations and then you layer on top of that the fact that they’re not obligated to pay their fair share of taxes, and so that’s billions and billions of dollars that could be put toward job creation and creating solutions to the housing crisis.”

Today’s events in Boston will continue with a “Take Back the Block” festival. At least 1,500 have registered for the festival.
Along with New York and Boston, an Occupy Chicago movement has emerged, with nearly 100 people gathering in front of the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank. The protests have been peaceful and no arrests have been reported.

Occupy Los Angeles protests which have also been small in numbers, has called for a march today at 10 a.m. from Pershing Square downtown to City Hall.

Brooklyn Bridge Occupied
Posted Oct. 1, 2011, 4:56 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Police have kettled the march on the Brooklyn Bridge and have begun arresting protesters. At least 20 arrested so far.
Follow the action

UPDATE: 5:15PM - Brooklyn Bridge has been shut down by police
UPDATE: 5:55PM - At least 50 arrested.
UPDATE: 8:17PM - NYTimes reporting hundreds arrested - including a reporter - police appear to have deliberately misled protesters.
UPDATE: 8:40PM - Around 400 peaceful protesters arrested.
UPDATE 10/2 2:20AM - Over 700 protesters arrested.

FIRST ‘OFFICIAL’ STATEMENT FROM THE OCCUPY WALL STREET MOVEMENT

This was unanimously voted on by all members of Occupy Wall Street last night, around 8pm, Sept 29. It is our first official document for release. We have three more underway, that will likely be released in the upcoming days: 1) A declaration of demands. 2) Principles of Solidarity 3) Documentation on how to form your own Direct Democracy Occupation Group. This is a living document. you can receive an official press copy of the latest version by emailing c2anycga@gmail.com .

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

Via reddit

not so, red. at least in my case. soul doesn't lend credibility to my saying this but i've no faith in anything or anybody. i may conclude that something told to me or that i read is highly feasable based how i judge the credibility of the person and a likely explanation, but i never believe it to be fact.

you say 'we begin with a theory [belief]'. a belief is not a theory by any stretch of the imagination. we begin with a postulate and from their form a hypothesis. the theory follows later when a test or tests can be conducted and shown to produce predictable and repeatable results in support of the new theory. i've posted this before:

'a good theory will describe a large range of phenomena on the basis of a few simple postulates and will make definite predictions that can be tested. if the predictions agrees with the observations, the theory survives that test, though it can never be proved to be correct.'

stephen hawking, the universe in a nutshell.

so even the best scientific theories should not be believed to be fact, proved or even provable according to hawking. sure it's passed every test of the decades or centuries but nobody knows if it will pass the next test. scientists never take anything on faith alone. they love to one up the other guy. always trying to challenge a theory using scientific methodology to see if the theory will hold up to the latest test. in science we investigate to disprove a theory knowing that any attempt to prove it would be wasted time.

religion is all about belief. one must beblieve there is a god as such a concept cannot even be theorized much less established as fact. when i lost my belief in god i concluded that to believe anything i senseless. afterall, the two people i trusted most, my parents, led me to my senseless belief.

These threads go something like this . . . . .creative lays out a valid and nuanced account of an aspect of philosophy.

Someone does not understand or wants to argue, comes up with a sad sad rebuttal, that rebuttal is pulled apart and shown to be in error.

That person is then offended and makes it there mission to poison the well, ad hom creative, and try to make him the bad guy.

I come along stick up for creative point out the flaws in the rebuttal trying to use more common language in hopes that the usage is the problem with the miss-communication, then I get frustrated becuase I realize the objective is not to debate the topic rationally but to attack creative and I leave.

I come back to find redy has set down a beautiful and insightful accounting of how this all goes down, and then everyone shuts up for a bit.

Next topic please we have made full circle.