The Piano gets repaired.......

suzy...I care because the body is dead but not the soul. my dad died when I was 7 and I don't believe he's just dead and shouldn't care

A judgmental God who has laws that he expects people to obey and who plays hide and seek and guessing games to his existence, would indeed be an unjust God.

How can he expect you to obey his laws if you don’t know where to find them written?

To say that his laws are written in the Bible is moot because no God ever told me that he wrote that book!

Also, you use really superficial examples, like murder and rape. Why do I say those are superficial? Because anyone with any common sense would know better to do those things. Those things automatically harm another human being. It should be pretty clear that if any God created mankind he or she wouldn’t want them harming each other. That’s just common sense.

But then when you get down to the real nitty gritty of it all, if you look at the biblical ‘laws’ you have a God (who refuses to verify his existence or that this bible has anything at all to do with him), asking people not to have sex out of wedlock, and for people of the same gender not to fall in love with each other romantically. AND to support and proselytize the contents of the book as the ‘word of God’ with all it’s idiosyncrasies including that all men are inherently evil and that humanity is headed to a doomsday confrontation that centers on the nation of Israel.

Why should I believe all that nonsense when no cosmic deity ever revealed to me that he has anything to do with the book that you claim contains his laws?

If there’s a cosmic deity who expects me to revere a particular book as ‘His Word and His Laws’ then shouldn’t he have some responsibility to reveal himself to me and point to that book as his word?

I’ve offered to serve this biblical God that is portrayed in this book. But he never revealed his existence to me in any way. Surely if the book is his law, and he is real then he would give people who are offering to obey him and serve him some kind of sign that he’s real. I get nothing from reading the book. In fact the more I read it the emptier it becomes.

Why would that be???

MorningSong suggest that the book makes no sense to ‘non-believers’. But duh? If I’m knocking on the door offering to obey and serve this God and he doesn’t open the door who’s fault is that? Why would he expect me to believe in a particular book for no other reason than the fact that it has been proselytized with violence and at the point of a sword over history? That doesn’t imply to me that the book has anything to do with God. Other cultures seem to have a much better picture of God. Why not believe that their picture is correct????

Other people have suggested that demonic forces are preventing me from seeing the truth of God’s word in the Bible. Well again, duh?,… If that’s true then come judgment day when I’m questioned why I didn’t believe in the Bible I can only give the truth that it appeared as total nonsense about a bloodthirsty God who solved everything with violence and can only forgive the sins of man if they are ruthless enough to slaughter his only begotten son for him so he can be appeased by the flow of blood.

That’s the way the story appears to me. Many people even tell me that this God will send good decent people like myself to hell just because they don’t believe in the book! That doesn’t sound like a just and loving God to me. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe in that book. It appears to be nothing more than absolutely totally absurd nonsense to me.

So if the book doesn’t really say all these things and some demon is distorting my view of it, then I ask, “Who’s fault is that?” Shouldn’t the demon who is distorting my view be the one who is sent to hell if he isn’t already there?

And finally, there are other pictures of God that make much more sense and are much more beautiful. Pictures of God where God is not bloodthirsty at all and never asks to be appeased by any sacrificial lambs. A God who has genuine unconditional love for all. Why not believe that is the true picture of God. It certainly feels right to me. In my heart and soul I find various pantheistic pictures of God to be much more spiritually compelling.

The God called Wankan Tanka of the North American Indians sounds much more legitimate than the God described in the medieval Mediterranean folklore. Some may claim it’s the same God, but in truth, the picture is quite different. Wankan Tanka embraces all living things as equal spirits, as well as nature herself.

There is no need to build any churches made of hewn stone with steps leading up to the alter to worship Wankan Tanka because Wankan Tanka is nature herself. If man were to lift up his tool to build an altar to Wankan Tanka he will have polluted her.

I believe that the vision of Wankan Tanka is more godlike than the biblical view that is all about worshiping graven images of crucifies and blood sacrifices to appease a bloodthirsty God.

Will the real God be angry with me because I believed God was like the picture of Wankan Tanka?

Perhaps not. Perhaps I’m destined to hell for not believing in a bloodthirsty God and attending churches made of hewn stone with steps leading up to their altars.

Perhaps I’m doomed for eternal damnation because I thought God was beautiful?

Shame on me.

Whatever will be will be, que sara sara.

I stopped reading at this point, I just don't have time. Brevity is the soul of wit.

If God sat on a throne in Israel, there would be no question of God's existance. People would worship God out of fear, not faith. In fact, there would be no faith on the matter. God is testing us to see if we come by our own volition.

That's a shame. We often miss the best things in life because we're always out of time.

Just for the sake of brevity, I basically said that I believe God is far more beautiful than the biblical picture, and therefore I have no reason to believe that the biblical picture is is the word of God.

I would never worship any so-called God sitting on any thrown in Israel for any reason, particularly out of FEAR.

Don't you ever watch Star Trec? There were beings (aliens) who demanded worship from humans and possessed human bodies. They would say: "Bow to your God or die!"

Are you really going to worship these beings out of Fear?

Count me out brother.

JB

all the stupid debates end......and all the ?'s get answered!

not that this has ANYTHING to do with the topic...but I look at the fear of God as respect not actual fear. just like I feared my mom and my son fears me.....not because of punishments but out of not wanting to disrespect or hurt. I was never worried about my punishments growing up but more of that I knew I was wrong and didn't live up to who I was. Fear can mean many things to different people. It doesn't have to mean fear of punishment.


now back to topic..... lol

then why do you keep coming in???? if you don't like it, you have the choice not to read it....hello mcfly

I have to disagree. Fear is Fear and respect is respect. They are not the same thing.

JB

JB and that is your belief. we have many different beliefs...doesn't make one right or wrong.

i do not believe in heaven or hell in the sense of white clouds and fire and brimstone. i do not believe in a god that punishes virtuous and kind people regardless of their religious affiliation. my observation is that people make their own heaven or hell in this life based on the choices they make in their own lives and live it out here. after life? the truth is that no one can say for certain. now i have seen much of those who I have known who have died in new friends i have made...i wrote a poem about it called "afterlife" and i know from experience that this is one way that they live on...for me...

my approach is to make the most of this life as possible...then i'll see about the next when the time comes...anyway, living virtuously can't hurt!



for abra - when examining writings or artwork one can perceive a variety of emotions evoked by that work. many see the positive aspects of the bible and see and experience beauty rather than ugliness. the guidance toward ethical behavior is there although i do not interpret it literally. the old testament at least does not specify proselytization to my knowledge nor original sin. i view it somewhat like a child's picture of a flower drawn on a canvas in mud. some might see the mud and be revolted - how can you see this as anything more than a pile of decaying leaves and dirt? others look at it and see a beautiful design crafted from all natural materials and textures of the earth and find great beauty - even divinely inspired beauty - in this design sculpted with innocent hands.
in my view the god of the bible is rightfully the same as Wankan Tanka, One, with Nature. and when we die we shall remain a part of Nature in a different form so there is a basis for viewing death as part of this continuum of Life.

although none can say for certain what is in store for us in the future, it is a certainty that we all shall experience it for ourselves. it is part of our adventure....

I wasnt being a smart azz.....although that is what I'm known for....

just simply making a true statement........

Bible says......in the Presense of God ....We WILL know all things.....
debate's over.....?'s answered......that simple....

BUT I also said it wasn't out of fear of the punishment

That's true. But if you think the debates are stupid why do you bother reading them?

Just curious.

I actually debate from a humanitarian point of view based on brotherly love including all of nature. I'm not really interested in religion other than the affect it has on humanity. Which is, unfortunately, quite extreme.

Sadly, a dogmatic religion quite often is many people's philosophy. They put their faith in that doctrine and leave their future of humanity in the hands of that doctrine.

So my concern with religion is how it affects humanity as a whole, not how it might be able to save my own personal butt from damnation. Which unfortunately seems to be a lot of people's motivation for being religious.

The definition of a word is not a belief. It is an agreed upon meaning. If they meant the same thing, there would be no use for two different words. So obviously they have different meanings.

One of the reasons people misunderstand each other so much is that they interpret words differently. If people would agree to the meaning of a word and if some words were not so ambiguous, we could understand each other better.

Fear is fear, it is not respect. You can both fear and respect a person or a God, but they do not mean the same thing.

JB

I have no problem with the debates....Abra....I watch them and your prespective is much like mine......

I'm from Missouri.......this is what I believe till ya show me different....

some of the debates get rather stupid though....I meant no offence in this one

was just myprespective from what I believe.....

JB...read my whole post because you will see I said (and repeated) that i also said I wasn't doing it out of fear of PUNISHMENT
I was referring to the fear of different things. But I do believe there has to be a respect of sorts for fear. if you don't care about something then why fear it? MY fear is to disrespect some I have great respect for. Please read the entire post before picking and choosing what you want

we all have different beliefs, interpretations of words etc and feelings. we all have different brains and feelings. I hope the day never comes when I am forced to believe, think, feel or interprete things as I see fit. the world will never be in total agreement about things...it's life.

and who defines what a word means to me???

then for MY sake...would you please expand on your statements???? lol I would much rather hear something that I totally disagree with than just case closed...end of discussion lol