The Word says the Spirit is good but the flesh is evil.

John 13:26 (Whole Chapter)
Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread
when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he
gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.

Jesus knew he would be betrayed and who would betray him - so Judas was
predestined to betray Jesus - correct or not?

By the way the Bible is full of other scriptures in OT and NT that back
up predestination as well as free will - we have free will to prolong or
put off - but eventually what is predestioned to happen, will happen -
we choose the path we take to get to that predestination.

Cool. But how evil is it for God to predestine 'Hell' for His
children. That does sound bad. All this is very interesting to me. I do
believe in 'some kind' of destiney, but I do believe in our choices
more. (that free will thing), because reality only exists when thought
has been entered into the equation. So, I believe that maybe I am here
to maybe relieve alot of the misconceptions that the non-understanding
man/woman may have about the real truth of God. I think too much has
been twisted by man. There are still missing books from the Bible. Or
maybe they are not missing at all. Just not included. What was the first
One God based reglion?

Don't know about the 1st religion question - but you comments envoke the
thought - ok in the begining there was God and all his angles - one
angle wanted to take over and that is how evil came about - so - I hate
to question what God does and doesn't know because He knows all - but it
does leave the mind wondering if God knew that would happen - or if
after that happened the predestination came about - because the whole
big picture is about good vs evil (Adam, Eve and the serpent) and in
Daniel and Revelation the false profit and antichrist try to rule the
world and are overthrown when Christ returns.

Hmmmm, I'm going to have to go back and read because if memory serves me
correctly up until a certain point in the Bible it's all about this is
what happened and how it happened and then it moves to prophecy about
the future (of course gives series of events but has major prophecy).
Which could possibly lead a person to think that these were the series
of events that lead up to the point where things after that point were
all predestined - PLEASE NOTE- this is just me thinking out loud and
typing my thoughts as they are occuring. There are mysteries in the
Bible and questions we will never know the answers to and I know and
accept that and this is one of them (although I completely believe the
Bible clearly shows and states pre-destiny) but it is certainly thought
provoking -

Yes. Satin walks into the holy temple and basicly props his feet up on
the holy alter and says I am god. Even the two profits that never saw
death prophsie this. Also, of course God knows all. He is pure energy
whitch exits every where all the time, but I think that this just all
brings us back around to the thought that we are all good and evil. Just
like protons and neutrons. It is the negetive and positive forces just
pulling and pushing on each other. It is in our nature. Because we have
been seperated. But in the end we all realize that we are all really all
one in the same. The very iron in our blood is the result of a once
existing star, and the very metal we know as gold would not even exit on
our planet if it weren't for a star that exploded years ago.

By the way, I forgot to answer my own question. It was the first one God
religion. Cathloic. The same ones responsible for voteing 'in' the books
of the bible, and the same ones for hiding books 'from' the bible.

Sorry, have to set the record straight - Monothesim existed before any
Christian faith. We're all learnig so much, I just didn't want truth to
be confused with opinion.

Many historians of religion hold that monotheism may be of relatively
recent historical origins — although comparison is difficult as many
religions claim to be ancient. Native religions of China and India have
concepts of panentheistic views of God that are difficult to classify
along Western notions of monotheism vs. polytheism.
In the Ancient Orient, many cities had their own local god, although
this henotheistic worship of a single god did not imply denial of the
existence of other gods. The Hebrew Ark of the Covenant is supposed (by
some scholars) to have adapted this practice to a nomadic lifestyle,
paving their way for a singular God. Yet, many scholars now believe that
it may have been the Zoroastrian religion of the Persian Empire that was
the first monotheistic religion, and the Jews were influenced by such
notions (this controversy is still being debated)[2].
The innovative cult of the Egyptian solar god Aten was promoted by the
pharaoh Akhenaten (Amenophis IV), who ruled between 1358 and 1340 BC.
The Aten cult is often cited as the earliest known example of
monotheism, and is sometimes claimed to have been a formative influence
on early Judaism, due to the presence of Hebrew slaves in Egypt. But
even though Akhenaten's hymn to Aten offers strong evidence that
Akhenaten considered Aten to be the sole, omnipotent creator,
Akhenaten's program to enforce this monotheistic world-view ended with
his death; the worship of other gods beside Aten never ceased outside
his court, and the older polytheistic religions soon regained
precedence.
Other early examples of monotheism include two late rigvedic hymns
(10.129,130) to a Panentheistic creator god, Shri Rudram, a Vedic hymn
to Rudra, an earlier aspect of Shiva often referred to by the ancient
Brahmans as Stiva, a masculine fertility god, which expressed monistic
theism, and is still chanted today; the Zoroastrian Ahuramazda and
Chinese Shang Ti. The worship of polytheistic gods, on the other hand,
is seen by many to predate monotheism, reaching back as far as the
Paleolithic. Today, monotheistic religions are dominant in the many
parts of the world, though other systems of belief continue to be
prevalent.

I'm really enjoying all of your different views and most of all learning
to understand why each of you has them to begin with. I'm going to do
an experiment. I'm going to take a question to the general forum - it
will be about "brain washing". I wonder how many will respond and what
they will say. It may be interesting to see how it develops in respect
to how we see and believe those things regarding faith and our
religions.

I'll let ya all know - or check it out for yourselves.

Thank you Mr. Redykeulous, I stand corrected. I guess more accurately I
should have addedd 'that still exists today'.

Netuserlla, You are a particularly wonderful participant. You have so
much knowledge and add so much to these conversations. You make me want
to read more about science, just wish I had the time. I hope you
wouldn't mind if I defer any question regarding the scientific to you
in the future.

Thanks for the comments, oh and sorry about the 'Mr'. I am a bad typer
as well as speller.

"I never believed in predestiny before but a membership class talked
about it and proved it w/ the verses:"

predestination on the fact that God for-knew all things and allowed them
to occur is a fact.

That God forced some things to occur isn't a fact. Sometimes he
intercedes for his greatest Glory *see the death of Jesus being allowed
to happen* But this doesn't for-go the free-will of man. God gets what
he wants done and is infinitely resourceful. Our submission to him is
simply a choice to get the honor and privilege of seeing Him work
through us.

Nicely put Saylors.

Let me get this straight. God being all knowing, creates us.If destiny
is injected in this, and God knowing that he is creating something evil,
and know that it is evil, then why would He create someone like that.
(creating evil is an evil act)Just so He would have someone to punish?
And what about the sorry saps that were created to be evil, can they not
choose what to be? The bible does say that we can choose life or death.
I beleive that God is all love. I don't think that God is evil.

I never said God was evil, cause He's not.

On the subject of this thread I say YES we have free will, I don't
consider it destiny but what is going to happen in the future is that
persons will and they will choose the actions that cause the events.
It's just like someone living today going back in time and predicting
what someone is going to do. They know what's going to happen because
they have seen it. Not because it was "injected" into them.

Sorry CCG. I didn't mean that you said that God was evil. I was just
tring to make the point that I believe in free will. I think that we
have to. But there is a certain 'kind of destiny' for sure.
According to the beliefs of the bible, the two wittnesses that never
saw death will come back at the apointed time and preach again. Speaking
in 'Real Tongues' so that everyone can understand what they are saying
no matter what language anyone speaks. Thier destiny is suppose to die
at the hands of the antichrist only when God appoints the time right.

I was going to say some things but when I read what R.Saylors and Fedman
said I can only add to this never ending long topic. I see Mike Montanna
employed words like: Destined (like destiny) Pre-destined; But he also
used the word: 'foretold.' By the way he mentioned that Joseph's wife
died and he remarried Mary. There is no proof that Joseph had a wife B4
Mary. That is a Catholic assumption to protect their doctrine that Mary
never lost her virginity and made more children as Jesus having brothers
and sisters are mentioned in scripture. Others believed she naturally
lost her virginity with Jesus's birth and gave birth to the brothers and
sisters of Jesus (Yahshua). But we are dealing here with 'free will,
together with the words used by Montanna. Destined etc.
Destinity? If u jump from a tall building without a parachute, U
destiny is U will break bones. Or you are destined to break bones or die
because of what U did with your free will, and not because U were
programmed to do that. The Bible says that a person can die before their
time: Ecc 7:17 Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why
shouldest thou die before thy time?
So then can a person be programmed to die before their time? It sounds
contradictory. Doesn't it? It is!! Then ChristianCountrygirl used the
word; 'Proved.' and quoted scripture. Here are some quoted scriptures:
(1)Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and
departed, and went and hanged himself.
(2) Luk 10:37:…………………………. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou
likewise.
(3)Jhn 13:27 ………….. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do
quickly.
and (4)Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? ……. ....Now do these texts
mean one should go and hang oneself? Certainly not!!! But it looks that
way. Doesn't it? Just so this religion in the US some years ago were
playing with snakes because a text in the Bible says that serpents will
bite U and U wont die as in Paul's case. When someone died, they will
say that one had no faith. So doesn't one have to be very carefull how
they used the word: "Prove?" I think so. Many times doesn't people, some
supposedly very intelligent,quote things out of context?

Here are some other things but in context:
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of
obedience unto righteousness?

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship
of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of
the world is the enemy of God.

1 John: 3: 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children
of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither
he that loveth not his brother.

These texts coupled with countrygirl's text in John saying 'you are of
your father the devil' are saying that if you do what the devil wants
and jumps from a tall building with your own free will,and break bones,
you were not predistined to do that act and die before your time, but
your destiny is that U will break bones. By Montanna using the word:
"Foretold?" It tells me that he knows that the Almighty foresees some
things, allows them to occur, and predicts their occurances through his
Prophets. Jesus did not call Judas like the rest. Judas came for
himself. No one programmed Judas to do that, but he was foreseen as
doing it.
Then there is another word that many Preachers profuse: "WHOSOEVER!!"
Whosoever wishes, with their own free will to do or not to do determines
his destiny. So here is this text in context: John: 3:16: "For God so
loved this World that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER
believeth in him should not perish BUT have everlasting life."
No one is programmed not to have everlasting life or not to have 'free
will.'
U are imprisoned or a slave, and U don't have the 'free will to do this
or that, but you have the 'free will to 'disobey or obey' then stand the
consequences. Not so?
The only one I feel was predestined was Yahshua (Jesus) He came to do
what he did. Yet there is evidence that he had to use 'freewill' and
reverse what Adam did with his freewill.

Free will, wow, some folks here know exactly what they are talking
about, great educational thread!

I have to agree with netuser on the connection of all things and that
expands to include the universe. The God of our creation is truly a God
of love. In giving us what is referred to as "free will" our paths in
life lay before us, unknown to us. But as He is an all-knowing God, He
truly knows our hearts and therefore our choices before we make them.

I am going to leave off here for now and keep reading your comments
before I post anymore of my own beliefs. I am not sure I can explain
yet. I have to find the right words (and not write a book) to reveal my
thoughts.

Have a blessed day tomorrow.

Redyke. The New Testament is: "If ye love Jesus (Yahshua) whom U should
believe if U want, KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS that was always there and will
be. Matthew: 5. and James 2; Isaiah: 66: 22,23. The old Testament is;
"burn on an altar, an unblemished animal u killed then believe that
followed instruction, will have U sins cleansed until the real offering
(Yashua) will be offered. There is no erasing of 'having to do
something' "Faith without works is dead" James.

HI everyone - dang it took me a long time to catch up. First: I do
believe that too many times there is a "removal from context" abuse. I
think this is one of the main reasons that there are so many different
Christian factions. The other of course is simply interpretation.

Grieving- thanks for your well thought out and written post, it was
obviously a labor of love on your part. You addressed a comment to me
about the commandments, which I appreciate. I would like to point out,
that I was not trying to say that the New Testament in any way
"belittled" these commandments, I only meant that they no longer held
the same power they once did. The reason, as I was taught when young,
was that God knew we could never hold to those commandments. The simple
fact that we were human and HAD free will, meant that we would make
mistakes. But in making these mistakes or transgressing these "laws" it
was not intended that we should think we could never be redeemed of
these "sins". In come Jesus and so sprang forth the one and only "true"
way to salvation - by asking with purity of heart for forgivness and in
so doing showing your belief, your faith in The Father and The Son.
So in these words are my reasons to say that there is free will, and
only death is predestined for even Jesus could not escape it. Please no
"risen" stories, can you imagine being saddled with this same body that
lived in here on Earth for all eternity??? If you say yes, you love
your body - think of John Merrick, otherwise known as the Elephant Man..