This is one question I have spent years trying to figure out. I have
spent 20+yrs believing in predestination, however lately it seems I do
have a limited amount of control over my actions.

I think using the dominoe theory would be the easiest way to explain how
I have become to feel in the last few years. Set up 100 sets of dominoes
with a finishing point in the same general area and start them falling.
At one point in the setup one domino misses its target and the run is
stopped. However the failing dominoe hits another layed out next to the
first set and the pattern follows from that point. It would start a new
path however it is not exactly as it was planned. It was a backup to the
original set, and since it now is heading along a different line I
believe this could be considered a different path.

If the original set followed the original path the outcome would have
been just slightly different from the second, and so on. Now the second
set does the same thing somewhere down this path and once again the same
scenario.

Now depending on how many times one domino misses its true mark and
cascades into another determines where the dominoes finish. I don't
think it truly matters how many times the mark is missed since in the
end most of the dominoes finish at the same general area. The path is
slightly different and since we can't set all the final dominoes in the
same space each end is slightly different from the one before it.

Just an Idea I have come to think about far to often.



G

regarding topic, we have free will in that either we choose to to Gods
work or our own. the choice is ours, yet i believe God already knows
what choice each of us will make.

OKAY, ASKING A QUESTION LIKE THIS IS COMPLICATED. YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE
SPIRIT PHYSICALLY, STUDY IT, LOVE IT, APPLY IT TO YOUR LIFE. GOD KNOWS
ALL. OKAY IT'S LIKE THIS, OUR LIFE IS A STRAIGHT TIMELINE GOING
VERTICALLY, THAT MEANS THERES A BEGINNING AND ENDING. GOD'S TIME LINE
GOES HORIZONTALLY, BE HE IS OMNIPOTENT, SO OUR FUTURE IS HIS PAST, OUR
PRESENT IS HIS FUTURE...YOU UNDERSTAND? GOD CAN SEE ALL, HE KNOWS WHOS
GOING TO HEAVEN AND HELL. HE CREATED US, HE USES US ALL TO CREATE HIS
WILL. BUT WE DO HAVE FREE WILL AT TIMES NOT ALL. GOD KNOWS WHEN WERE
GONNA FAIL AND SUCCEED. HE PUTS US ON A TRACK IF YOU WILL AND ALONG THIS
TRACK WE'RE FREE TO DO WANT WE WANT ALONG THIS PATH. BUT HE'LL LET BAD
THINGS HAPPEN TO US TO SHOW US HIS MERCY. LOL, IM CONFUSING MYSELF HERE.
ANYWAYS, HE KNOWS WHAT WE'RE GONNA CHOSE ON THIS TRACK. LIKE MICE GOING
THROUGH A MAZE AND HEAVEN IS THE CHEESE AT THE END. BUT WE GOT ALL THESE
OBSTACLES IN THE WAY SOME OF US GET LOST ALONG THE WAY. UNDERSTAND NOW?

HERES A THEOLOGICAL QUESTION FOR YOU?

IF GOD IS ALL POWERFUL AND CAN DO ANYTHING CAN HE BUILD A BOX PUT
HIMSELF IN IT AND LOCK HIMSELF IN IT?

Yes.

He did when he created us.

So Dean, according to what you've said, I see God as a Queen Ant.
Sitting on a throne of creative birth. Deciding who it wants to create,
where to create it, writing the new beings entire life story, and then
putting it into production - giving it life.

That means that God also decieds who will have birth defects, which ones
will not make it through the birth process, who will be psychopaths, and
who will be Stalin's and Hitlers?

Anyone want to vote for Steven King for God?

Damn, I hit post reply before I made it clear I was being sarcastic. I
was being sarcastic, it was just the way Dean's writing hit me. Sorry
Dean, no offence, just some light humor.

"regarding topic, we have free will in that either we choose to to Gods
work or our own. the choice is ours, yet i believe God already knows
what choice each of us will make. "

Isn't that a little like saying "If God can do anything, can he make a
rock to big even HE can't pick it up?"

Why even have a Judgement Day if everyone's a foregone conclusion? Why
waste an only begotten son on the Already Damned?

And given the track record of Calvinists' 'work' towards those Already
Damned, can it be said that His People are doing 'God's Work' by being
truly UNexcellent towards those who God has already turned his back
upon?


-Kerry O.

Whoa - deep digs on that one K - good thinking, logic at work..

Dean, in regards to your question, "lock himself in a box?", is it
possible to slap yourself three times before you can count to two?

Shaking my head here. Something about the question just strikes me as
wrong. Odd considering how tolerant I am ordinarily.

Now I have to look at my tolerance, just for a reality check. Dang, I
didn't want to do reality checks today. I suppose there are other things
I am intolerant about. Disrespect kind of bugs me though. I suppose some
might consider me disrespectful towards Islam. Suddenly my life is more
complicated.

As for the Calvinists paradox, I concur. Seems a lot of effort for
saving someone destined to hell. And if they are not destined for hell
they certainly do not need saving.

I absolutely believe in free will. God knows what you are going to do,
but doesn't control you. The Bible shows this again and again. Infact,
to claim that we don't have free will makes sin irrelavant and makes God
out to be a demonic monster. To imagine that God created people so that
he could use them as puppets is laughable.

I believe in freewill. Yahweh knows who he chooses ut it is up to him
to follow. If Yahshua did not have freewill then his comming as a
sinless man meant nothing. Because as some believe he was Elohim
(speaking as if he was the father. He came to show us the law was not
burdensome. but right and just and holy. He had to feel pain as we do,
be tempted as we are and yet remain sinless. His sacrafice for the sins
of the world Yahweh excepted as spotless. This is the reason he said "do
not touch me for I have not yet accended to my father"Being touched he
would of been impure. prophesies unfold as we make them unfold. Yahweh
lets us make mistakes gives us wisdom if we ask for it and know it's
value.The kingdom would of come in Yahshua's time if they would of
accepted him. They chose to murder him. judas chose to betray him. Paul
after being blinded chose to have Zeal for him.and we are told to watch.
the signs will be thier for us if we chose knowledge over riches. being
the Greatest commandment love Yahweh with all your heart, soul and mind.
The 2nd is LIKE it to love your brother as yourself. (the whole of the
law and the prophets) Because through the Law we know what sin is.
beware for thier will come manny false prophets saying he is here or
over thier. Many ways to Yahweh HUH? We are told it is 1 way. So Yahshua
told his disciples about the end WATCH for it will come as a thief in
the night.Listen to Grieving as he is telling you the truth.And WATCH
for your destiny may come when you least expect it... Shalom May Yahweh
Bestow Wisdom and Not Riches on His Elect... Miles.....

Luke 21:34-36

"But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with
carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you
unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on
the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that
you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to
pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
NKJV

In Romans 8:7 it is stated plainly that the natural mind of humans is
hostile against God. This does not necessarily mean that all unconverted
human minds are actively, intentionally, maliciously hostile. Most
humans are passively hostile against God. They simply do not normally
think about God. If God is mentioned they become embarrassed and often
try to change the subject. They probably do not realize, in their own
minds, that they have a hostile attitude toward God. Yet that is the
very reason, psychologically, why they want to avoid the subject. In
other words, the average person has an unrealized passive hostility
against God. Without realizing it actively, they want God to “keep his
nose out of their business”—except at a time when they are in deep
trouble and they cry out for God’s help.

Spiritual things—invisible things—are a mystery to them. They do not
understand those things, real though they are, because they cannot see
them. They remain a deep mystery so they deny their existence.

There was a cause for this willing ignorance. And the Bible clearly
tells us that cause, which is dual: 1) what occurred prehistorically,
and 2) what God himself instituted following the original sin of Adam.
But first, what does the Bible reveal about who and what is God? It is
only in this inspired book that God reveals himself. But mankind in
general has never believed God—that is, what God says! God spoke face to
face, personally, to Adam and Eve, the first created humans. Then he
allowed Satan to approach them. Satan got to Adam through his wife. Our
original parents believed Satan when he said, “Ye shall not surely die,”
after God had said, “Thou shalt surely die” upon stealing the forbidden
fruit.

When Jesus Christ spoke on earth 4,000 years later, only 120 people
believed what he said (Acts 1:15), though he preached his message from
God to multiple thousands.

No wonder, then, not one of these religions, sects and denominations,
except the small and persecuted Church founded by Jesus Christ (a.d.
31), starting with that 120, believes God, which means these others do
not believe what God says in his Word. God’s Word plainly reveals who
and what God is!
Just who and what, then, is God? How does he reveal himself? God is the
Creator, who designed, formed, shaped and created man.

The prophet Isaiah quotes God himself, saying: “To whom then will ye
liken me, or shall I be equal? . . . Lift up your eyes on high, and
behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by
number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for
that he is strong in power; not one faileth” (Isa. 40:25-26).

God is Creator of all—of everything in the vast universe—the stars, the
galaxies in endless space, this earth, man and everything in the earth.

That is what God is—what he does. He creates! He designs, forms and
shapes. He gives life! He is the great giver. And his law—his way of
life—is the way of giving, not getting, which is the way of this world.

But what is God like? Who is God? There have been many conceptions. Some
believe God is merely the good or good intentions, within each
human—merely some part of each human individual.
Many think God is a single individual supreme Personage. Some thought he
was a spirit.

But the generally accepted teaching of traditional Christianity is that
God is a Trinity—God in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
which they call a “Ghost.” The word trinity is not found in the Bible,
nor does the Bible teach this doctrine.

If you were asked where in the Bible to find the very earliest
description of God in point of the time of his existence, you probably
would say, “Why, in the very first verse in the Bible, Genesis 1:1, of
course.’’ Right?

WRONG!

In time-order the earliest revelation of who and what God is is found in
the New Testament: John 1:1.

(“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by
him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was
life; and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1-4).)

“The Word” in this passage is translated from the Greek logos, which
means “spokesman,” “word” or “revelatory thought.” It is the name there
used for an individual Personage. But who or what is this Logos? See the
explanation in verse 14:

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his
glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace
and truth.”

When he was born as Jesus Christ, he was flesh and blood, materialistic
and could be seen, touched and felt. But what was he? As God—as the
Logos? That is answered in John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and spirit is
invisible. We know what was his form and shape as the human, Jesus.

Kat

I enjoyed your post. I am wondering though are you saying the father
and son are the same? That Yahweh himself came to earth as a man?
Blessings... Miles

No..I do not believe that we have free will.

with out free will all religion is a farse

Maybe I have the wrong idea of free will..anyone want to explain to me
their ideas of it please

This is something many of us are taught early on. I am having a hard
time making it clear to myself as being "one, or three".
Scripture seems to document, as three. I am still in research of that
answer. It would seem not at this time.

The Bible clearly teaches the oneness of God - "Hear O Israel; the Lord
our God is one Lord" (Deut 6:4). But does this mean the three
personalities in the Godhead are all the same person? Does it mean they
are one in essence and purpose?

The Father is God (Eph 4:6); the Son is God (John 1:1-4, 14); and the
Holy Spirit is God (Gen 1:2; Acts 5:1-4). All three are Divine in every
facet of their character. All are omniscient (all knowing); omnipotent
(all powerful); omnipresent (seeing all things at all times); and
omnibenevolent (all loving). They are holy in every way, and in them is
absolute perfection.

In the Old Testament, the word for God is the Hebrew Elohim. This is a
plural word, as is evidenced from Genesis 1:26-27 where God said "let us
(plural) make man in our (plural) image." In John 1:1-4, the text says
of Jesus, "the same was with God in the beginning."

There are several passages in the New Testament which show the three are
separate personalities. At Jesus' baptism in Matthew 3:13-17, we see the
Spirit descending upon Jesus, so we know Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
While the Spirit was resting upon Jesus, a voice from heaven came
saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." So we know
the Father is a separate person from the Spirit and the Son.

In giving the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19, Jesus told His
disciples to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of
the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." If all three were the same person,
this would be a redundancy and wouldn't make any sense to the disciples
or to us today.

For further consideration, one can also read John 14-16 and see the many
distinctions made by Jesus between Himself, His heavenly Father, and the
Holy Spirit.

As the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son, and as the Spirit
is in the Father and the Son and bears them in himself (as “the Spirit
of Christ” and “the Spirit of the Father”) — in brief, as each member of
the Godhead mutually inhabits the other, in a similar way the human
being is structured for the indwelling of another (Jn 17:20-26).

Kat

maybe they are one as in family

today in the world the closeness of the family

is no where near the way (i think) it was in the day of

the scriptures

it may not be the scripture is hard to understand

but that the world has changed

to the point of changing the way we look at them


but hey what do i know

Man certainly has free will. Otherwise God would be unjust to choose
some to be saved and others to be lost based just on his whim. The
problem with those who say that once a person is saved he cannot lose
his salvation is that such a doctrine necessarily requires the belief
that man does not have free will.
Logically, one could argue that it makes no sense for God to give
commandments to men if they have no choice in following them or not. One
could not sin, because sin implies a choice to obey. If one has no
choice but to violate a command, then logic says they can not be held
accountable for the sin. But that is logic, not scripture. Fortunately,
the scriptures also say man has free will.

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set
before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,
that both thou and thy seed may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day
whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were
on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose
land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
(Joshua 24:15)
“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” (Proverbs
3:31)
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it
is sin.” (James 4:17) (If we had no choice, then knowing to do good
would necessarily result in doing good.)
There are other passages as well, but these should suffice to show that
man can make choices. The idea proposed by John Calvin that one is
either destined for salvation or condemnation and must follow that
course (“irresistible grace”) without the possibility of change just
doesn’t take these scriptures into account.

Why try to teach people about the gospel,if they believe that those God
has chosen for salvation will necessarily come to obey the gospel, they
don’t need to preach to them; God will see that they learn the truth
some other way. If they believe that those God has chosen for
condemnation can not do good, then it is a waste of time to teach them
because they could never obey.

God has approached man by offering a savior for sin. Now it is up to man
to accept that offering. We must approach God in the way that he has
designated, in response to his approaching us.

Kat