You call that prophesy?

Looks more like a fishing expedition to see if you can't try to match up anything at all that might appear to potentially have some extremely vague similarities with some of the things that might be associated with Jesus.

When I was studying probability and statistics we examined things like this and there's a mathematical certainty that given to stories about humans you can always come up with a whole lot of similarities because of the simple fact that human stories are indeed similar. In fact, the similarities between Zeus and Yahweh are amazing themselves.

They are both the "God of Gods" (above all other Gods).

They are both Male Fatherly images.

They are both appeased by blood sacrifices.

They both supposedly had sons through which people could more easily appease them.

They both fathered demigods.

They both rule over their kingdoms from thrones.

The list goes on.

Besides, look at what you're working with:

Matthew 3:17 (NIV) And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Your going to try to use that verse as a claim that some prophecy has been fulfilled?

I think anyone who believes Matthew 3:17 doesn't need to see any prophecies because if they believe that verse, then what more is there to question? Obviously the God himself has sealed the deal right there. No need for any prophesies at all.

Moreover, there three important points here:

First off, Psalms was a story about King David, not Jesus, or the coming of any future messiah.

Secondly, Matthew (actually Mark) had full access to Psalms so if he wanted to use that story to model his own after it was clearly available to him.

Both Luke and Matthew were just rehashing the rumors that Mark had originally started so the actual verse to be looking at is:

Mark.9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Finally, and most importantly, there is absolutely no independent report of any God speaking from the sky or from any cloud to a crowd of people decreeing that Jesus was his son.

The only place this rumor has ever been seen comes from the writings of Mark. And then of course, Luke and Matthew's reinterpretations of Mark's original rumors.

So all we have to go on is Mark's word that this even supposedly happened.

It's clear to me that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were all trying to support the idea that Jesus was a predicted messiah. And they clearly had the Torah (or Old Testament) right there to work with. It's right in their very own scriptures. They try to make a case for all the things that had been "fulfilled" by referring back to those very same scriptures. So clearly they were biased writers who obviously had all this information at their fingertips at the time that they were writing these stories up.

They were seeking to fulfill "prophesies". So it's human nature that if you're about to tell a story and you want to connect it up to past events you're going to slant everything you write about to match up with what you're attempting to claim.

So were prophesies "fulfilled"?

Or were the authors of the New Testament "fulfilling" the prophesies as they wrote their stories?

I'm convinced it was the later, not the former.

They looked back in the texts and thought, "Oh we need to claim that God decreed Jesus to be his son. Ok no problem, lets just claim that god did that", and so they write: "And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."

Yeah right.

You could write a story about anything you want and fulfill whatever prophesies you like. Just write them into your story. It's that simple. Who's going to know that you're making it all up?

People will be IMPRESSED!

Look! Everything in this story had been predicted thousands of years before!

Not really. What really happened is that the story was written on purpose to make to look that way.

That's all.

Prophesies or fraud?

I think fraud is the more likely truth.

Cowboy wrote:

Yes good point. So why do they teach our kids these lies in school? Why do they teach their propagated lies to our kids in "history" class? With your way of thinking, as always, EVERYTHING can, could be, would be, should be, and probably is a LIE.

Better to ask which of the OT prophesies have NOT been fulfilled.

There are many.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Psalms 2:7 (NIV) I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son ; today I have become your Father.

so do that mean that they weren't Father and Son the day before?

but anyway...Cowboy the list you provided are not prophecies but proclamations

Very good point indeed. In fact, their are Jewish websites that list these to show why they are indeed convinced that Jesus could not have been the promised messiah.

However, what I was truly hoping to see was an actual prophecy that actually PROMISES that a messiah is supposedly coming?

I have yet to see that anywhere.

All I see is people pointing to various vague things throughout the Bible and trying to tie them in with an idea of a messiah, but in most of those cases I don't even see any mention of any promised messiah.

~~~~~

Even the prophesies of Jesus "returning" are unsupportable.

According to the story we have the following:

1. Jesus said he would come back and there would be a judgment day and the FEW people who qualify will be collected.

2. Jesus died.

3. Jesus supposedly CAME BACK three days later. (prophesy fulfilled, Jesus CAME BACK)

4. A multitude of "saints" were raised from their graves at this time. (i.e. Judgment day had arrived and the righteous were resurrected)

5. The saints when into the Holy City. Probably to collect the FEW righteous people that Jesus had promised he would 'save'.

6. Then Jesus, the saints, and the people they "saved" all left.

7. End of story.

There's no need for any "Second Rapture", apparently it already took place 3 days after Jesus had died. We're the descendants of the rejects.

But seriously, look at what these scriptures had Jesus himself saying:

Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Well, if Jesus said that he was going to return and take the righteous people with him, then clearly that too would have needed to occur within the very same generation of people that Jesus was speaking to live.

So there you go. Even if the story is true, it's a done deal that would have no applicability to anyone living today.

Cowboy wrote:

We are still in the same generation. We are in the generation of Jesus. Before Jesus walked this earth, that was one generation. Then Jesus was made flesh and walked the earth, that is when the next generation started. This generation will be complete when Jesus returns.

1 definition of generation - the term of years, roughly 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

The TERM of years. As humans we accept say 30 - 40 years to be a generation. That is the TERM of years we as humans accept as a generation. There is no indication that this is the same TERM of years for the "generation" Jesus was speaking of. Generation is wide to interpretation. What YOU consider to be a generation may not be what another person(s) and or culture considers to be a generation. We could say 100 years is a generation, we could say 50 years is a generation, we could even say 1000 years is a generation if that's the time one wishes to give for a generation. It's only our culture these days that consider roughly 40 - 70ish years a generation. It is only our culture these days that consider a generation from parent, to child being two different generations. That is purely what we have grown to be accustomed to.

Well, it's no wonder you can "see" prophesies being fulfilled in these tales if you twist every word to suit the results that are required to support your anticipated conclusions.

That's a self-fulfilling prophesy right there. Just twist everything around to make it suit your needs.

Cowboy wrote:

Somethings being twisted here? hmmm. Let's see. I posted the definition of generation. So again, how would I be twisting something?

You posted the definition:

1 definition of generation - the term of years, roughly 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

But your trying to twist that to mean:

"We are still in the same generation. We are in the generation of Jesus. Before Jesus walked this earth, that was one generation. Then Jesus was made flesh and walked the earth, that is when the next generation started. This generation will be complete when Jesus returns."

Where do you get that definition of "generation"?

More important why would Jesus expect anyone to associate the concept of a "generation" with having anything to do with him?

You're basically asking us to expect that Jesus was clueless about how to speak with humans.

Why would he even bother telling them that "this generation" will not pass until all his prophesies are fulfilled, if the concept of "this generation" was utterly meaningless to the people he was speaking to?

It would have been a totally meaningless thing to even say if we allow for your distortion of the word "generation".

Again, you just twist the meanings of words whenever these stories don't conform to your liking.

Yet you seem to be the first to object to everyone else's abstractions and speculations about verses found in these stories.

I've shown where Jesus said that he will not judge anyone for not believing in him or in his words. You reject those statements of Jesus and prefer to twist them into something entirely different.

I've shown where Jesus said that people will either be cast into everlasting punishment, or receive the gift of eternal life. Yet you don't like those words, so you try to claim that there will be no such thing as 'everlasting punishment', and that God with accepts people into heaven or they just merely die and cease to exist.

I've shown where Jesus said that there will be many people in heaven who got there on their own righteousness, and that the 'lost sinners' who are found will be the exception rather than the rule. Implying that not all men are "sinners".

In fact, I've shown where Jesus said that he did not come for the righteous but only for the sinners. Yet you reject the notion that there exists anyone who doesn't need to be "saved".

You just prefer to TWIST everything to your own liking.

It doesn't matter what it is.

And then you just reject everyone else's interpretations.

All you're trying to do is become POPE and dictate to everyone else what you feel the scriptures must mean.

I can see that you prefer to believe the things that you believe and that's fine with me.

But the bottom line is that everything you believe is both, entirely "faith based", and entirely of your very own making via your own desire to interpret things in a way that suits your liking.

So you create your "God" by demanding what he must be "like". He had damn well better live up to your expectations or when he meets you face-to-face he's going to have one hell of an argument on his hands, because you won't accept "His interpretations" of things.

You've put your "God" in a box. Your "God" now has to live up to YOUR expectations.

Where do you get that definition of "generation"?

More important why would Jesus expect anyone to associate the concept of a "generation" with having anything to do with him?

I've shown where Jesus said that he will not judge anyone for not believing in him or in his words. You reject those statements of Jesus and prefer to twist them into something entirely different.

In fact, I've shown where Jesus said that he did not come for the righteous but only for the sinners. Yet you reject the notion that there exists anyone who doesn't need to be "saved".

So you create your "God" by demanding what he must be "like". He had damn well better live up to your expectations or when he meets you face-to-face he's going to have one hell of an argument on his hands, because you won't accept "His interpretations" of things.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Psalms 2:7 (NIV) I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son ; today I have become your Father.

Proverbs 30:4 (NIV) Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Matthew 3:17 (NIV) And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Luke 1:32 (NIV) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Romans 1:4 (NIV) and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus Christ would be anointed with the Holy Spirit of God.

Isaiah 11:2 (NIV) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD--

Isaiah 61:1 (NIV) The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Psalms 45:7-8 (NIV) You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. 8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad.

Matthew 3:16 (NIV) As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

John 3:34 (NIV) For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

Acts 10:38 (NIV) how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Jesus Christ's name is the same as the Tetragrammaton (YHWH).

Isaiah 9:5-7 (NIV) Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NIV) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

Romans 10:9 (NIV) That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:9-11 (NIV) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus Christ would be The King.

Psalms 2:6 (NIV) "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill."

John 18:33-37 (NIV) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." 37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Jesus Christ would be a Prophet.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (NIV) The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:18 (NIV) I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Acts 3:20-22 (NIV) and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. 21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

Jesus Christ would be a Priest.

Psalms 110:4 (NIV) The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 5:5-6 (NIV) So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." 6 And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 6:20 (NIV) where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:14-17 (NIV) For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Jesus Christ, "the Anointed One, the ruler," would come the first time as "the Anointed One" after "sixty-two 'sevens.'" Jesus Christ would come the second time as "the Anointed One, the ruler," after "seven 'sevens.'"

Daniel 9:24-26 (NIV) "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. 25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Matthew 2:1 (NIV) After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem

Matthew 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Jesus Christ would die "sixty two 'sevens'" after the first order to rebuild Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:24-26 (NIV) "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. 25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Romans 5:16 (NIV) Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

1 Peter 3:18 (NIV) For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Jesus Christ would be the "seed of the woman" that would crush the serpent’s head.

Genesis 3:15 (NIV) And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Galatians 4:4 (NIV) But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

1 John 3:8 (NIV) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

-------------------------------------

There are more as well. These are old testament prophecies that were fulfilled in the New Testament.

You posted the definition:

1 definition of generation - the term of years, roughly 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

But your trying to twist that to mean:

"We are still in the same generation. We are in the generation of Jesus. Before Jesus walked this earth, that was one generation. Then Jesus was made flesh and walked the earth, that is when the next generation started. This generation will be complete when Jesus returns."

Where do you get that definition of "generation"?

More important why would Jesus expect anyone to associate the concept of a "generation" with having anything to do with him?

You're basically asking us to expect that Jesus was clueless about how to speak with humans.

Why would he even bother telling them that "this generation" will not pass until all his prophesies are fulfilled, if the concept of "this generation" was utterly meaningless to the people he was speaking to?

It would have been a totally meaningless thing to even say if we allow for your distortion of the word "generation".

Again, you just twist the meanings of words whenever these stories don't conform to your liking.

Yet you seem to be the first to object to everyone else's abstractions and speculations about verses found in these stories.

I've shown where Jesus said that he will not judge anyone for not believing in him or in his words. You reject those statements of Jesus and prefer to twist them into something entirely different.

I've shown where Jesus said that people will either be cast into everlasting punishment, or receive the gift of eternal life. Yet you don't like those words, so you try to claim that there will be no such thing as 'everlasting punishment', and that God with accepts people into heaven or they just merely die and cease to exist.

I've shown where Jesus said that there will be many people in heaven who got there on their own righteousness, and that the 'lost sinners' who are found will be the exception rather than the rule. Implying that not all men are "sinners".

In fact, I've shown where Jesus said that he did not come for the righteous but only for the sinners. Yet you reject the notion that there exists anyone who doesn't need to be "saved".

You just prefer to TWIST everything to your own liking.

It doesn't matter what it is.

And then you just reject everyone else's interpretations.

All you're trying to do is become POPE and dictate to everyone else what you feel the scriptures must mean.

I can see that you prefer to believe the things that you believe and that's fine with me.

But the bottom line is that everything you believe is both, entirely "faith based", and entirely of your very own making via your own desire to interpret things in a way that suits your liking.

So you create your "God" by demanding what he must be "like". He had damn well better live up to your expectations or when he meets you face-to-face he's going to have one hell of an argument on his hands, because you won't accept "His interpretations" of things.

You've put your "God" in a box. Your "God" now has to live up to YOUR expectations.
[/quot Oh it's bad but I like it. For a Patheistic/pagan of a liver.. Blessings ,,Miles

Jesus is the Word made flesh... So he would not have been able to be the son of God before he was made flesh, now would he have? No, so when God turned the word flesh, eg., Jesus, he become God's child.

Cowboy someone telling you that you are their son is not a prophecy.....I'll give you an example that you can understand and can't dispute

THE EXAMPLE:
when Darth Vader said to Luke Skywalker... "I AM" your father...

now explain how that was a prophecy ...




[/quote

Are you having fun?

And how are they not prophecies? They are things to come, and or happen in a certain amount of time. Some of those may not be "prophecies" from today forward, no. Some of those may have already happened, thus they are no longer "prophecies". But for the ones that have not happened, they are still prophecies and will happen.

Cowboy all you did was upload a list from a website and proclaim them to be prophecies without any futher explanation as to how they are.....