but children are more likely to see 'imaginary friends' too,,,does that mean perhaps there really is a life beyond this one and possibly that life is dependent upon our choices in this one....?


if this unfiltered childlike view is the truly 'enlightened' way to the truth,, that is

You're adding your own beliefs into it, name one child who has not indoctrinated by religion yet that has said to you: "I saw God take me to hell, and he said I'll go there if I don't this this this and this", bet you won't find one. 99.9 percent of the time that child is shown something loving. Imagine that right?

No, the rest is all an adult thing.

well, the terms 'agnostic atheist, agnostic theist' quite simply don't exist in my vocabulary. i suppose if i ever come upon one of those people who do use the terms they might just as well be speaking russian. either way i'll make little sense of what they're trying to say. lol.

ah, my lovely, mh. this may be THE most logical thinking you've ever expressed on these forums. lol.

by definition, a psychologist might diagnose an atheist who claims to KNOW that god does not exist is every bit as delusional as is someone of faith who claims to KNOW that god does exist.

an agnostic like me looks at the two of you going back and forth and realizes that neither of you can ever prove yourself correct or the other wrong. not in this lifetime, anyway. why? simply because the human mind is incapable of knowing the existence OR nonexistence of god, the afterlife and other supernatural phenomena.

hey, you may be just the person i've been looking to talk to. you see, i've had a new hobby since i retired which involves the study of quantum mechanics. now i'm convinced that there must be something to this new science discipline but as hard as I USE MY HEAD, i cannot seem to grasp much understanding of the crap. and yet, unlike you, although i can't work it all out in my head, i still think that the science is JUSTIFIED. i find what my austrailian mate, a university professor teaching this science to phd undergrads, is telling me must make some sense and think the science is JUSTIFIED as it is leading us, or i should say folks in the profession like him, to a greater understanding of the universe.

he says things like, "trust me, john. for now just grasp what i say about the basic principles as being correct. you'll understand why as we go along, but for now if you cannot accept these basic principles you'll never grasp quantum phyics." i listen to him because i think there is something to this stuff even though i cannot yet understand it. much of it at any rate.

point being, i'd put my ability to "USE MY HEAD" up against your's, his or anybody else's on the planet. don't know your thinking on quantum physics but whether or not you've studied the discipline maybe you can help me out here. you say that if your "head cannot justify something no matter how hard [you] try, it simply cannot be true." well i want to KNOW stuff like you KNOW stuff. is there any TRUTH to this quantum stuff? if YOU cannot justify the crap in YOUR HEAD no matter how hard you've tried, "it simply cannot be true" right? i should find a new hobby, right? or if you have made use of your head and have justified it perhaps you'll sit in with me and my phd mate from austrailia next time we're online together and help the poor sucker out getting through my thick skull. actually he says the crap will likely never be fully KNOWN so perhaps you might help him out too. i'm sure he dosn't like chasing his tail in life and would appreciate KNOWING that if YOU can't figure it out in YOUR head "it simply cannot be true" and he can quit wasting his time and retire and go fishing like me. yes, i do have other hobbies that are not unlike chasing my tail.

dang, gots me one large i'd have thrown down on that bet. you could have covered any peice or all of that thosand bucks and either way i'd be richer. my daughter was not indoctrinated by religion. she's not even a christian or affiliated with any other religion and she says damn near that very thing. ah well, come easy, go easy. story of my life. if only i had one copy of tomorrow's wall street journal.

Right. Dogmatic Atheism. Atheism that holds itself up to be the only truth, requires no proof or reason and is essentially it's own religion.

What people like you fail to realize is that quantum mechanics is testable in a lab (sometimes like when theists say you cannot see air, but you know it's there). Quantum mechanics doesn't punish you if you choose to give up on it and quantum mechanics is apart of science which we all can change (the Bible you cannot even though it has been over the years) and analyze. The beauty about science is there is a abundance of sources for its evidence as well as you can do it on your own. For instance, there's the multidimensional hypothesis, which i don't believe in until i can see more evidence supporting it. No different then God(s). You cannot default something to something just because you have a hard to grasping reality, invoking a God as a back up plan begs bigger questions. If God does exists where is it? Who created it and who created the one who created it and so fourth. Most Christians/theologians use the cosmological argument, but that have been refuted also as what i previously stated. If you're saying that him "using his head" is a bad way of thinking, because that's means he really doesn't know if a God exist or not, i'd grant that much, but when it comes to the Abrahamic God, there are way to many flaws in the Bible for a rational person to take serious, so i contend that's what he might be considering; could be wrong.



I disagree with this also, i think i better response would have been, it simply doesn't mean God did it.



It wouldn't be blind faith unless i don't visit those countries. We know that stealing is real and people are real, you can go visit the lands of and see for yourself. We can have evidence, by asking around, observing and setting something up to test if i stole something would there be consequences. "in the end the ones that matter will matter", this is exactly my point of why atheists get upset. You have no definitive of knowing yours is right, but most Christians really believe there's right. We see it everyday with abortions, homosexuality and creationism being taught in science classroom issues. Not even to negate Islam, we see issues over there also. Most atheists could give a flying hotdog if someone believed that a hobbit was governing the universe, it's the fact it's so widespread and people are trying to inject their religion everywhere.




You're right nobody can be sure, but with this kind of thinking ANYTHING can be true. Like previously stated, it's the fact people religion have a tendency to want to run the world. I think Christopher hitchers best describe how i feel on this issues:

"For hundreds and thousands of years, this kind of discussion would have been in most places impossible to have, or Sam and I would have been having it at the risk of our lives. Religion now comes to us in this smiling face ingratiating way because it has had to give so much ground and because we know so much more. Don’t forget the way it behaved when it was strong and when it really believed that it had God on its side."

Plain and simple, if religious people throughout the years kept to themselves i seriously doubt anyone would even care what they believe. There are minor points i agree with you on, but all i'm saying is believing in something off fear is not the same as believing in something because you have evidence. I've debated plenty of Christians (not that count as browning point because i hate debates), but they all resort to "well if i'm right i get paradise, i'f i'm wrong oh well", i bet you wouldn't feel the same if you were the people leaving there faith or switching to Christianity in the middle east and have to adhere to the punish of apostasy.

mykesorrel,

I like your use of BBCodes.

Ha-ha, thanks. I wasn't even really trying to get this deep into the topic of God, because no matter what, people have to come to their conclusions on there own - my only problem is people who believe their conclusion is right and try to govern the world with it. Off to classes.

Believe me, I have a problem with that too. The problem isn't religion, it's mindset. Those Christians who would base laws on Christian ethics are becoming less and less common.

I really love you guys and the diversity of opinions, but ya know sometimes I think, "Does EVERYTHING have to become a freakin' debate???"



Well, for people of faith it's bad and good. Bad for you because it means you are fulfilling prophecy and the end of this world is near. Good for us because you are fulfilling prophecy and the end of this world is near.

It just depends on your individual perspective, really. It's to be expected so I don't have any emotional upheaval either way.

touché, i never understood the Christian obsession of world end or any religion for that matter. You have Hitler, who blamed the Jews for everything,told his people he would lift up their hearts, depression, and then committed genocide to the Jewish people and we find that atrocious, but when God does it, it's in the name of love. Ha, but i get your drift, if the prophecy was true with a twist, God just taking all Christians up to heaven and leave everyone else here (minus the torture), that wouldn't sound so bad :-p .

Do you think all humans fear death?

What reasons do humans have to fear death?

Do you think that a belief that eternal existence with loved ones relieves the fear of death?

If the eternal existence is conditional based on an ambiguous set of behaviors does the fear of death increase?

Would it not make sense that if a person believed he or she was following the ONLY acceptable behaviors for eternal life that fear of death would be relieved?

It seems to be that all these beliefs are about relieving fear by creating more fear.

Humans don't need religious beliefs, we are naturally equipped with psychological mechanisms that help us live day to day without the stress of constant fear.

Unfortunately, it seems our own creativity is one of these mechanisms, and so people have created these intolerable religious belief systems.

1.Do you think all humans fear death?

2.What reasons do humans have to fear death?

3.Do you think that a belief that eternal existence with loved ones relieves the fear of death?

4.If the eternal existence is conditional based on an ambiguous set of behaviors does the fear of death increase?

5.Would it not make sense that if a person believed he or she was following the ONLY acceptable behaviors for eternal life that fear of death would be relieved?

It seems to be that all these beliefs are about relieving fear by creating more fear.

Humans don't need religious beliefs, we are naturally equipped with psychological mechanisms that help us live day to day without the stress of constant fear.

Unfortunately, it seems our own creativity is one of these mechanisms, and so people have created these intolerable religious belief systems


1.No
2. possibly anxiety about what they will be missing in life, possibly anxiety about ceasing to exist forever, possibly fear of burning in a 'lake of fire'

I dont fear death, so these are only observations. I think most people just dont want to miss out on ANYTHING by dying and they are 'fearful' of whatever suffering may happen prior to death.

3. No doubt, for some it relieves the fear.

4. Only if there is first a belief in eternal existence. Then, if there is also a belief in an eternal punishment. Others have more of an anxiety that is increased by shooting for something that they know will take certain efforts to reach. Kind of like knowing that you wont get to Harvard without straight As, if your family aren't connected or all Harvard grads.


5. Yes. Anxiety would be lifted if one believed they were doing all they were supposed to to achieve a certain goal or reach a certain destination. Kind of like how I dont fear getting lost when I have read a map first.



I agree humans dont NEED any book, I feel we are equipped to survive 'this life' with animal instincts. But I do think humans need knowledge of culture, of values, of community to truly LIVE and to live ETERNALLY.

me neither, Ive never known such an obsession personally and have only read about others who have it on the news...lol

see everyone can blame the jews for christianity and islam cause if the jews didn't start with the hebrew bible the other 2 wouldn't even exist jk well it's true but in a joking manner

I dont 'blame' anyone

people have always had values , beliefs, etc,, and they have come from many sources

religion being but one


its really not unusual or unhealthy to have some frame of certainty about ourself even if 80 percent of what we learn we cant truly VERIFY or havent VERIFIED for ourself,,,,its how we function in a society , having similar foundations and similar knowledge upon which to build and discuss


So, as certain as I am that someone named Franklin 'discovered' electricity, I am sure there is a creator God who inspired the Bible as a guide to living.



as to christians running the world, so do men, so does money,, are we discussing throwing out either of them anytime soon? truly , someone has to be in majority and right is right wherever it comes from.

so if people agree on what they think is right, why does it matter what the source was,, if noone encourages anyone to 'harm' others for disagreeing,,,?

I Can think of hundreds of biblical references to things that most people agree upon, why does it become automatically controversial if the Bible mentions it,, the Bible happens to have plenty of moral value regardless of religious affiliation

not sure who's post you're referring to but people like me realized damn well that quantum mechanics is testable in a lab.

precisely. dogma is dogma. such atheism is no more supportable than any religion.