believing is not "all god is asking of us", if he/she is asking anything
Believing is all man made interpretations of forces from beyond expect of us

huh

FeralcatLady wrote:
“People are fine to bash God and call him names...”

As far as I’m concerned Christianity is nothing but a god-bashing religion. That religion makes God out to be a real jerk.

I don’t reject god. That’s silly. You just don’t understand the difference between religion and god. That’s all.

tinabelle wrote:
“third...God doesn't say "believe only if it all makes sense to you".
God says simply..."believe" -that's faith, and that's the root of the Christian walk.”

God never asked me to believe in Christianity.

You people just can’t differentiate between religion and god.

tinabelle sayd "but it's understandable that we find reasons to doubt what we are afraid of. "

unfortunately, it's the exact opposite. humans created gods because of their fear of death. i'm not afraid of believing in a god. people embrace religions precisely because they're afraid of their fate. and that's a typical human reflex. put 2 kids castaways on an desert island and you'll soon discover they'll create their own gods, once they witnessed death of other animals.

_________________________

Abra, i respect your approach, which sounds to me more like the one of an agnostic. kind of. you say it's semantic, but it's not. an agnostic says : "i don't believe in religions, and when it comes to god, well, i'm not sure, maybe yes, maybe not." That's the bet of Pascal who studied both sides of infinity and not finding any logic behind it, decided to bet on god's existence.

true atheists are different. they don't believe in the need of a god, period. i don't feel my life is empty if there's no god and if my existence is pointless. believing in god is trying to find a logic behind the unexplainable, at least for now.

if i was to follow a religion, that would be something we could call "naturalism" or rather "animalism" (it doesn't exist). i don't believe i'm different than an animal. a bit more evolved, maybe. still need proof on that, though. it's not because whales don't build highways that they're less intelligent. but my point is that i can witness sometimes more differences in level of intelligence between some humans than between some humans and say, chimpanzees. would that make the first category gods or super-humans Nietzsche was writing about ? i don't believe so.

dogs lick their balls because they can. well i think humans believe is gods because they can.

see, animals don't venerate superior species. they fear them, sure, but there's no adoration there. thus if I'm an animal too, and consider only myself as slightly more evolved, why couldn't i simply follow animal's philosophy too ? after all, humans are a minority on this planet. my theory might sound odd, but not more than considering the whole universe is god or that a guy came down on earth 2,000 years ago to save me from a sin i didn't even commit yet.

abra, you theory is charming, but i don't see any point there but just another new-age kinda theory. ok, universe is god. so what ? ok, i'm part of it, because your theory of inclusion states that atoms form the universe (which is only partially true since like 95% of the universe is empty), now what ?

will that help you in your everyday life ?... it'll eventually help you cope with your own death fate, but even that i'm not so sure.

since humans are supposedly the only specie able to "feel" the effect of time, and therefore understand that their lifespan is limited, the easiest way to cope this this terrible idea is to believe in a god. therefore our intelligence is also our weakness, and in many ways i'd rather be an animal and not be tortured by that question. and guess what ? that's precisely my philosophy.

Skidoo wrote:
“true atheists are different. they don't believe in the need of a god, period”

I don’t believe in the need for a god either.

I don’t believe they way I do because I feel a need to. I believe the way I do because I see no other alternative. There are deep reasons that I say this that are difficult to convey in a one-sided post. These kinds of things are better conveyed over fire-side chats. There are many philosophical as well as logical reasons why I believe the way I do.

Skidoo wrote:
“abra, you theory is charming, but i don't see any point there but just another new-age kinda theory. ok, universe is god. so what ?”

There are everyday benefits to believing the way I do. Let’s forget about the reincarnation part altogether. I have no fear of ceasing to exist. I have never feared death in any way. So let’s just toss that out the window as being completely unimportant. Let’s say that all we are is form, and when the form disappears so do we. Now what,…

Skidoo wrote:
“i don't believe i'm different than an animal. a bit more evolved, maybe. still need proof on that, though.”

Ok, you begin by saying that you’re no different from an animal. In essence, I’m with you 100% on that. When I say that the universe is god, it automatically follows that all living sentient creatures are also god. So in the pantheistic view humans are no differnet form animals spiritually. The pantheistic view forces us to recognize that all living things are equal (at least in the essence of their being).

You go on to say, that you need proof that humans are a bit more evolved, but then you go on to suggest reasons why humans are a bit more evolved,…

Skidoo wrote:
“since humans are supposedly the only specie able to "feel" the effect of time, and therefore understand that their lifespan is limited”

So now you suggest that humans are more highly evolved in at least two ways.,… First, they are aware of the big picture of their lifespan, …. and second they are cognizant of the nature of their existence to a point, including having the intelligence to figure out their place in the universe.

We are more highly evolved than animals. We are more intellectually awake than they are. This mere fact forces the conclusion that we are differnet from animals. Christianity sees this as arrogance (i.e. self importance). They get carried away and jump to all sorts of ridiculous unwarranted conclusions that only man has a spirit, etc.

However, with pantheism we recognize that the only real difference between a lower animal and a human is indeed the level of cognizant evolution. That’s the ONLY difference between a lower animal and a human.

But look where this leads,…

Humans have the ability to intellectually figure out their origins. We’ve discovered unequivocally that we have indeed evolved out of the universe. We’ve traced our origin, not only though it’s biological pathway on the earth, but we’ve even traced the evolution of the very solar system in which we live, and the origin of the very universe beyond that. Animals have no clue that the sun is a star. They have no clue where they even came from. They most likely aren’t even aware of the fact that they were born of a female, etc, etc, etc. Knowledge that we take for granted. So yes, there is a certain bliss with that ignorance.

Skidoo wrote:
“therefore our intelligence is also our weakness, and in many ways i'd rather be an animal and not be tortured by that question. and guess what ? that's precisely my philosophy.”

You may call it a weakness if you like. I’m not bothered by the question of death.

I didn’t search out pantheism because I needed to believe in something. On the contrary I didn’t search out pantheism at all. What happened was that I came to conclusions that basically ended up being pantheistic. So now I use that label to convey the notion in a nutshell. I don’t think of pantheism as a ‘religion’. I am not a religious person at all anymore. To me pantheism is a world view, a philosophy, a way of thinking that just happens to coincide with how I see our true nature.

My actually reasons for holding a pantheist view stem from many differnet areas, including, (mostly) scientific reasoning, pure logic (philosophical arguments), and last but certainly not least, intuition and life’s experience.

Unfortunately I’ll have to stop here because this post is already humongous. I could easily write several books conveying why I feel that pantheism is the correct view of our existence.

Like I say, it has value in helpings us to understand the bigger picture, even if we toss out the concept of reincarnation as being ‘wishful thinking’. I don’t believe in reincarnation because I feel a need to live forever. I have very solid logical and scientific reasons for believing that it must be so (whether I like it or not).

In some ways, just ceasing to exist is almost more inviting for me at this particular point in my life. So having a need to live forever, or fearing death is certainly not a contributing factor to why I believe in pantheism, it’s just an unavoidable part of it. It’s not something that I need to believe to give meaning to life.

People who need a god to give meaning to their lives are indeed in sad shape.

i will never believe


nope no matter how much the drugs work, no matter who you pull out of the woodwork


there is no GOD



it's crazy to imagine that little pee brains like ours could ever begin to fathom the answers of the cosmos....



some things are way more fun as a mystery


ok shoot me !!

Alex wrote:
“there is no GOD”

You go to your room right now young lady, and don’t come out until you’re ready to apologize to all the people who can’t handle life without a god.

Taking away their god is like taking a pacifier from a baby! They can’t handle the idea that life might just be what it is, they need a fairytale to believe in. Personally I like to believe in the Cheshire cat. But that’s just me.

It surely won’t hurt anyone to believe that they’ll wake up on Santa’s lap when they die.

I’ll take that donut thank you.

abra,

thanks for your honesty. i see however 2 flaws in your response :
_____________________________

1) you distinguish humans from animals saying that the latter have no clue of their origin, future, etc...

First, this assumption is not proven (since we're not intelligent enough to communicate with other species) and it ironically puts us in a quite condescending god-like position towards our animal "inferiors".

But let's assume this is the case, that we know better than they do : if science teaches you on thing, it's humility. The more we learn, the less we know. In other words, what separates us from the apparent lack of knowledge of animals is far less important than the whole lack of knowledge we have facing the mysteries of our universe.

We may know a lot about our solar system, until someone will solve the question of universe's infinity (both ways), I'll feel not much more evolved than an mosquito.

Btw, I don't see any contradiction in my thesis : i added on purpose (with some irony) the word "supposedly" when it came to illustrate the given fact that human have the ability to "feel" the effect of time. I don't believe we have this exclusivity. There are countless examples proving the opposite, such as elephant cemeteries, turtles birth-beaches etc... I was just giving a typical example usually advanced by theists opposing humans' status versus animals'. Not to mention that quantum physics prove in many ways that our way of feeling the effect of time is probably totally wrong.

Anyway, my point was just to illustrate - and i think we agree at least on this point - that since animals don't praise any god, why would we ?

_________________________________

2) I respect pantheism and in particular your declared approach of treating it as nothing but a philosophy. However, you can't deny that believing in reincarnation is something that helps pantheists coping with the idea of death, even though you claim this is not what motivates you.

And the first problem is see with reincarnation is that it implies a strict distinction between body and spirit, and that, my friend, is a common factor to all religions. And please don't serve me the "21 grams" urban legend BS, even though i loooove Iñárritu. Thus pantheism does only one thing on this subject, it unites all religions.

Plus you seem to elude other controversial aspects of Pantheism that contradict your "strictly-philosophical" approach. Pantheism claims that there's a "personal, conscious, and omniscient God". "personal" sounds very monotheistic to me. Depending of its meaning. does it mean "personal" as in "1 individual" (or spirit), or as in "present in every person" ?
Given what you said, I'll tend for the latter.

If that's the case - and because the pantheist god has a conscious and is omniscient - that would imply that all objects and living entities in the universe would be connected by a superior mind in a web-like spiritual inter-connection. wow ! sounds pretty creepy to be reduced to a puppet.

The problem i have with your legitimate claim is that you don't sound 100% involved in your belief. As if there would be some areas of Pantheism you would not fully share (such as the reincarnation part). You haven't really responded to my question : "so what ?" ... yes, what are the benefits to believing in Pantheism ? you didn't develop and that's the most interesting part :-)

you say : "My actually reasons for holding a pantheist view stem from many different areas, including, (mostly) scientific reasoning, pure logic (philosophical arguments), and last but certainly not least, intuition and life’s experience. "

Excuse me, but I don't see where Pantheism is helping in science, logic or intuition. can you develop ?

There's also the possibility that you're not a "pure" pantheist per se, thus why don't you just read philosophy instead ? I'd highly suggest Sartres, Kant or Nietzsche if your still searching explanations. Because as a strong atheist, I would far better respect your position if you were 100% backing up your religion or philosophy (the way feral does), unless indeed, you're still searching.

Why is it so important to substantiate belief?

If the whole concept of religion is based in faith....


any religion...

Then it is unsubstantiated.

Death is death, and an icecream cake at the end, or a bum steer, will still be the same, no substantiating it, whilst alive....

So, I'll let you know when I get there, who or what, or who not, or what not, was there...

If I tell you, my name is Mary and I am the mother of a gifted child,... would you believe me?

...I must be bored, sowie, really sorry.

Re Skidoo wrote: "If science teaches you on thing, it's humility. The more we learn, the less we know".

Of course. The more you learn the more you fully realize you will never "know everything". Not even close....

To me questions of God are no different from any other topic... it will never be possible to answer all the questions, except *possibly* after death or perhaps many deaths and rebirths.

But I still enjoy the discussions.... I like talking about men too but it is a given for me that I will never fully understand them... not even close.

"Anyway, my point was just to illustrate - and i think we agree at least on this point - that since animals don't praise any god, why would we ?"

I don't believe god needs or wants or even pays attention to such praises. My god certainly is not so vain as to *demand* praise.

But do I praise god? Actually I do. But for me it's more just a way of encouraging myself to be mindful of all the good in life. It's a focusing ritual for me. I believe it makes my life somewhat richer to remind myself of all the beauty and variety on this planet. I don't praise or thank god in order to curry favor or gain some sort of afterlife advantage. That makes no sense to me.

As for being "still searching"- I think one should be continuously searching and re-evaluating all beliefs their whole life. Settling on a static philosophy and calling it done is like putting your mind to sleep. Do we not learn new things every day? I hope so otherwise it would get quite boring for me.

Abra:

FeralcatLady wrote:
“People are fine to bash God and call him names...”

As far as I’m concerned Christianity is nothing but a god-bashing religion. That religion makes God out to be a real jerk.


Answer: You don't pay attention Abra because I think I have stated this at least 1 million times...(Factor 9) I don't care what religion ppl are....Religion and the different there of are of man and I frankly don't care what religion people are. I studied many many religions and my conclusion is that FOR me, myself, and I, is to believe that my Savior Christ died on the cross for my sins and our salvation. Everything else is irrevlant for me, myself and I. You also and everyone else can think, believe, do, whatever it is you want to. But also don't say that I don't have the right to believe what I believe. And again I say to all of you I have come to my conclusion from my own personal experiences, miracles, and the God of all speaking directly to my heart. It's a very personal relationship and thats all......understand the difference between religion and god. That’s all. So I would appreciate it if you would not use my name when you say I can't tell the difference between religion and God.

quote - I respect all beliefs, as long as they're based on true knowledge. Otherwise, one could "believe" in Britney Spears, right ?

Britney exists. In that way it's true knowledge that can be believed in. There is no true knowledge in relglion as far as I can see.
:)

As far as I can see their is.....

Abra wrote;

Eljay wrote:
“Just curious, because you say "She" always answers your prayers - but ‘He’ didn't.”

Because these are two differnet pictures of god.

The God of the Bible is a Santa Claus God.

The god of pantheism is not.


Like Anoasis had mentioned, there are differnet ways to view ‘prayer’.

If you view prayer from the point of view of asking for things (the Christian point of view) then you’re viewing God as some kind of Santa Claus who will actually reach into reality and change the course of things.

***** This is where your argument fails - as you claim this premise to be truth. The Christian God is not a "Santa Claus God", as God does not reach into time to change things - there is not need for Him to do that. He's already done whatever Has occured, according to His will - and His response to prayer is merely opening the mind of they who ask - to the truth. If one happens to ask God - in a "Santa Claus" way for something to happen - and it does, it was because it was always going to happen - not because in the space of time God sat down and "made a list and checked it twice" to determine the person asking worthy of recieving their request.

However if you view prayer from the point of view of listening to god (the pantheistic point of view), then all your prayers will be answered because god will guide you rather than answer your requests.

***** This is my understanding of the Christian God.

These are two entirely different philosophies.

In one, God is person-like and can physically reach into reality and change thing at HIS will.

In the other, god is spirit-like and works through human beings via THEIR will.

***** Then there is the third example - the God who is a spirit and works through human beings via His will - because only He knows the entire truth of the matter - that being the immediate result of the request, and the on going consequence of it - and ultimately what is the best response to the prayer given all the information that is available and which is impossible for the one praying to know. This is the God of Christianity.

newfuture;

It depends on which religion you are talking about.

Satan rejected ""Adam"" as a superior creature,and we see the results,so we have to be careful when rejeting ""GOD"".

Crypto;

You asked:

"Did you think that how many times he helped and saved you during your life?"

This is the only way I think. Your entire post captures my life view - with a moderate exception. I do not necessarily think the good things we do "improve" our soul - unles you consider soul to be synonimous with rightiousness and wisdom.

Lizardking:

Could you expound on this:

"believing is not "all god is asking of us", if he/she is asking anything
Believing is all man made interpretations of forces from beyond expect of us"

I missed the point.

I think that our personality(or our soul if we believe in that) as a mankind can vary from an animal to a good human that is superior to all,even the angles,(skidooo this is the main different between us and animals,we can choose...)

I think it depends on us to choose which one to be.you don't need to believe in death or heaven to be a good human.
and if you obey the real!!!religion rules you don't loose anything in this world.

Skidoo wrote;

Anyway, my point was just to illustrate - and i think we agree at least on this point - that since animals don't praise any god, why would we ?

This fact facinates me! Could you provide the documentation you have to back this up? And is this true of insects, birds, and fish as well?