Presidential Poison
His invitation to indict Bush officials will haunt Obama's Presidency.

Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their antiterror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret.

Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama's victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.

If this analogy seems excessive, consider how Mr. Obama has framed the issue. He has absolved CIA operatives of any legal jeopardy, no doubt because his intelligence advisers told him how damaging that would be to CIA morale when Mr. Obama needs the agency to protect the country. But he has pointedly invited investigations against Republican legal advisers who offered their best advice at the request of CIA officials.

"Your intelligence indicates that there is currently a level of 'chatter' equal to that which preceded the September 11 attacks," wrote Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, in his August 1, 2002 memo. "In light of the information you believe [detainee Abu] Zubaydah has and the high level of threat you believe now exists, you wish to move the interrogations into what you have described as an 'increased pressure phase.'"

So the CIA requests a legal review at a moment of heightened danger, the Justice Department obliges with an exceedingly detailed analysis of the law and interrogation practices -- and, seven years later, Mr. Obama says only the legal advisers who are no longer in government should be investigated. The political convenience of this distinction for Mr. Obama betrays its basic injustice. And by the way, everyone agrees that senior officials, including President Bush, approved these interrogations. Is this President going to put his predecessor in the dock too?

Mr. Obama seemed to understand the peril of such an exercise when he said, before his inauguration, that he wanted to "look forward" and beyond the antiterror debates of the Bush years. As recently as Sunday, Rahm Emanuel said no prosecutions were contemplated and now is not a time for "anger and retribution." Two days later the President disavowed his own chief of staff. Yet nothing had changed except that Mr. Obama's decision last week to release the interrogation memos unleashed a revenge lust on the political left that he refuses to resist.

Just as with the AIG bonuses, he is trying to co-opt his left-wing base by playing to it -- only to encourage it more. Within hours of Mr. Obama's Tuesday comments, Senator Carl Levin piled on with his own accusatory Intelligence Committee report. The demands for a "special counsel" at Justice and a Congressional show trial are louder than ever, and both Europe's left and the U.N. are signaling their desire to file their own charges against former U.S. officials.

Those officials won't be the only ones who suffer if all of this goes forward. Congress will face questions about what the Members knew and when, especially Nancy Pelosi when she was on the House Intelligence Committee in 2002. The Speaker now says she remembers hearing about waterboarding, though not that it would actually be used. Does anyone believe that? Porter Goss, her GOP counterpart at the time, says he knew exactly what he was hearing and that, if anything, Ms. Pelosi worried the CIA wasn't doing enough to stop another attack. By all means, put her under oath.

Mr. Obama may think he can soar above all of this, but he'll soon learn otherwise. The Beltway's political energy will focus more on the spectacle of revenge, and less on his agenda. The CIA will have its reputation smeared, and its agents second-guessing themselves. And if there is another terror attack against Americans, Mr. Obama will have set himself up for the argument that his campaign against the Bush policies is partly to blame.

Above all, the exercise will only embitter Republicans, including the moderates and national-security hawks Mr. Obama may need in the next four years. As patriotic officials who acted in good faith are indicted, smeared, impeached from judgeships or stripped of their academic tenure, the partisan anger and backlash will grow. And speaking of which, when will the GOP Members of Congress begin to denounce this partisan scapegoating? Senior Republicans like Mitch McConnell, Richard Lugar, John McCain, Orrin Hatch, Pat Roberts and Arlen Specter have hardly been profiles in courage.

Mr. Obama is more popular than his policies, due in part to his personal charm and his seeming goodwill. By indulging his party's desire to criminalize policy advice, he has unleashed furies that will haunt his Presidency.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124044375842145565.html

Those sick people that did this torture crap should go to prison. No one is supposed to be above the law. If you or I did that stuff we would be in jail right now.

When it comes to enemy combatants they should be tortured. They have no Civil rights or deserve them. We are talking about people who regularly torture and kill their own for theocratic reasons. These are people who also pose a serious threat to the safety and well being of American, Asians, and Europeans who are not Muslim. How else are we supposed to get these degenerate pigs to talk? Treat them nice? Think of it this way, how do you think the Taliban would treat an American in their captivity? Don't feed me that line about stooping to the level of the enemy. Sometimes to kill the beast you must become the very thing you hate. Why should we tie our hands with rules when the enemy won't?

Obama just sucks. His grasp of the world scene is really not very well focused. Jimmy Carter comes to mind. Another notable Democrat and one of the worst presidents in history! he was the one that set teh tone for Iranian belligerence.

Why sink ourselves to their level? We are supposed to be the more civilized nation. The evidence gained through torture is questionable in quality at best.

I agree. However, if the indictments move too far up the chain, there will be a very, very dangerous precedent set.

By releasing all this information and trying people based on confidential documents from a former administration, I personally feel that it is the equivalent of what happens when a third-world country faces a regime change - metaphorically kill the last regime.

I'm all for punishment where punishment is due, I just do not see this as ending well. If looking back on the last administration and attempting to punish them for their actions becomes habit, maybe we will become more morally supportive. however, there is always the possibility of the negative side where it results in all out fighting between the two parties (not in the physical, war like sense, I mean)

That being said, keep in mind that I don't believe that any of the detainees were dressed in an official military uniform and they are therefore exempt from any provision of the Geneva Conventions or other international law regarding war.

This may just end up as a witch-hunt that yields no positive result if there is no basis for trial.

Thank you. It's evil and its not our way. We should be better than thatThey do not have my moral permission to torture anyone in my name.

You or I don't get that privilege. No one should be above the law. And "just following orders" don't cut the mustard. Plus it would be a matter of time before the goverment starts trying to do it to American citizens

You said:



"Sometimes to kill the beast you must become the very thing you hate."








That means they win

You go Mirror!!!!

Go sign the Petition!
Burn the Bush!


http://pol.moveon.org/torture/?rc=homepage



Accountability for Torture

On Thursday, President Obama released memos showing that top Bush officials didn't just condone the use of torture--they encouraged it.
So far there's been no accountability for the architects of Bush's torture program. We need a full investigation and real consequences for those responsible - it's the only way to keep this from happening again.
Ask Attorney General Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the torture program.
A compiled petition with your individual comment will be presented to Attorney General Eric Holder.

I agree that the "witch" hunt can bring no good results.


As for the torture debate, let's personalize it a bit. Suppose for the sake of discussion, mirror or fanta, or any of the other adamant opposers of torture, however it is defined, suppose that it was you, or your personal friends or family, that the CIA had information that a specific terror organization had targeted for death. To what lengths would you want them to go to get information to save, perhaps, your children, your parents, or your siblings life?

Would you simply welcome a call stating "In view of your opinions on torture, or "tough" questioning, we asked them nicely to tell us and they said no, so we turned them loose. Kindly watch out for these problems yourself."

Get real, when it applies to each of us personally, the torture thing is viewed in an entirely different light.

I am against torture no matter whatIts sick,twisted,and evil, and anyone that thinks its okay has something wrong with them.Thats what I think of it

"Just following orders" does, in fact cut the mustard because it is a direct order from a superior. The CIA is not as strict as in the actual military, but it's definitely not one to mess around with insubordination.

torture is an art form and unfortunately the CIA is not artistic or even gifted. The KGB was better than them and underestimated too much. There are ways of punishing people that do not involve bloodletting. Sleep deprivation does work very well. Ask the Vietnamese from the VC.

Also look at the psychology of the people we are fighting. They do respond to pain. All they know is war ad you expect to have them just lay down and make peace? If you are going to make war it must be total or nothing at all. Innocent people get caught in the middle all the time. Remember when Saddam was lobbing SCUDS into Israel to get them into a war they shown remarkable restraint over.

Not buying the whole "stooping to their level" and "they win" argument. If we do not fight them they do win. Look at the way the wind is blowing in Pakistan. They may wind up becoming another Taliban run nation and this time they will have nukes if they do!

Remember this people, this comes from a card game called Nuclear War,

HEY BUDDY, GOT CHANGE FOR 25 MILLION PEOPLE?

Will it take a city or two getting wiped off the face of the map to make you see we got to crack eggs to make this omelet? Can you honestly justify leaving our population open to such an attack because of principles? If you could then there is one good reason why you are not making the big decisions in this nation. Sorry but the middle east is full of suicidal and religiously motivated fanatics and there is ways to deal with them besides torture but for the ones we do catch then we need to share the love they share with us.

Again do you think that many of these people would show you any respect if you were in their clutches? There is a reason the people in the middle east are poor, it is because their leadership wants it that way so they can make them hate someone other then them selves. Who is kidding who?

No, in fact ,it doesn't. That excuse didn't work at the Nuremberg trials did it?

Americans don't torture. Don't matter what the enemy does. And I dont agree with any of your generalizations either

I'm just waiting for the look on Obamas face when a atomic bomb blows up half of Califonia because he couldn't get any answers out of the captured terrorist who planted the bomb because they wouldn't torture them.Since this war began ten of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved because we totured those maggots and got the information we needed to stop mass destruction.Perhaps if Bill clinton had any guts he would have captured a few terrorist,tourtured them,and found out about 9-11 before it happened and stopped it.

I also consider water boarding,standing for hours in one place,sleep deprevation,and other light torture techiques hardly torture.Give the guy a day or two of rest and he was just like he was before.Gouging someones eyeballs out,putting them in a rack and stretching them,burning them with hot pokers,and beating them until the can't move is what I call real tourture.We didn't even come close to doing that.The idea of torturing someone by sleep deprevation or making them stand in one place for days to get information to save hundreds or thousands of people is perfectly logical from any stand point.

Is torturing a terrorist who doesn't deserve to live anyways worth one American life?I think it is.

I still believe in America.We have our way and they have theirs I still believe that we can be ourselves and win. We can live according to the principles that made us great. I still believe even if others are so ready to give up on this great nation

ok so if there is all of this to go up as far as the president...why isn't anything done??? put up or shut up IMO