Different problems require different solutions, correct?

1) The Great Flood was necessary because everyone, but for a small family, were focused on doing evil acts all of the time. Everyone but that small family had to die, so that humanity would have some redeeming value. Humanity was one or two generations from becoming irredeemable.

2) Humanity is a mixed bag of good and bad, but everyone needed salvation. Also, if you really had read the Bible, you would know that Jesus is called "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...that's in part because God knew what was required from the beginning. An incredible self-sacrifice on his part, in order to save his creation from itself.

I thought Christians aren't supposed to bear false witness against their neighbors?

You can spread lies about me all you want. But the truth is Spider that you aren't even in a position to make such a claim. You don't even know me and you have no clue what I may have read or not read.

I will say this much. I have not read every last single word in the Bible. And I have never claimed that I have.

I've read enough to know what I flat out reject it. And I've also read enough to know that no matter what else might be in the Bible that I have not read in detail cannot in any way change or justify the things that I have read.

And the proof is in society.

I mean, look right here on these forums, even you and Cowboy can't agree on various Christian concepts.

When I was young, I was surrounded by preachers. There were preachers in my family, and they would often invite other preachers over for dinner. Those preacher would sit around after dinner and discuss various topics about the Bible and often disagree with each other. Politely of course. But disagreement none-the-less.

In fact, it was this experience that helped to encourage me to look into the Bible for myself to see if I could come to precise answers and resolve conflicts between preachers.

What I found was that the Bible cannot be used to resolve much of anything. Reading it raises far more questions than it answers.

As far as I'm concerned the only true solution to the Bible is to simply recognize that it's not the divine word of any God at all. It's just the superstitious fables of men.

Only THEN does it make PERFECT SENSE.

No two people have identical relationships with a mutual friend, that doesn't mean they don't share the same friend. Cowboy and I disagree, I'm sure, on many things, but we agree on what counts.

No, no no.

You misunderstand. I didn't say that you read the Bible, I said that you haven't read the Bible. So what I said is true, but thanks for making sure that I stay on the straight and narrow.

Sorry. I'm not the least bit impressed Spider.

The Bible also says that man is created in the image of God.

If all of mankind turned to continual sin then that doesn't say much for God.

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There are also other problems from a religious point of view. Christians often claim that all sins are equal, yet no man is without sin.

So that's a paradox and blatant contradiction associated with the Great Flood and God supposedly sparing Noah and his family.

If Noah was not without sin, and all sin is equal, then Noah should have been drown to along with all the other sinners.

On the other hand, if Noah and his family were without sin, that this flies in the face that no man is without sin.

So it bombs out either way.

There is no justification for it. It's just total nonsense. It makes no sense. It contradicts the very principles and premises held out by the religion itself.

So again. No sale.

You're just beating a dead horse as far as I can see.

There is absolutely nothing "perfect" about the biblical stories. In fact, they are so "imperfect" that they are basically outrageous and utterly absurd, IMHO.

So you're lying about me because the truth is that I have read the Bible.

You Christians will lie to support your religion. You'll even tell lies about other people and slander them in an attempt to discredit them so you can spread more of your lies.

Clearly you people don't represent anything holy. You'll stoop to the lowest possible realms to support your religious bigotry against all religions that refuse to accept the Bible as the "Word of God".

It's truly disgusting.

If your behavior is the result of your obsession with religion then I most certainly want no parts of it. I don't want any parts of any religion that is going to incite me to go around telling lies about people I don't even know anything about.

You don't have kids, do you?

They don't always turn out like their parents. Someone good parents have bad kids. You are also a very shallow thinker. When you are trying to refute one of the world's greatest religions, you shouldn't do it with a logical fallacy. You present this as if God is either perfect and humanity is perfect or Humanity is imperfect and God is perfect. Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that Humanity is imperfect and God is perfect. It's not a hard concept, I'm not sure why it is giving you so much trouble understanding it.

I fixed that for ya.

If you've really read the Bible, it was a very very long time ago and you don't remember much. You get things wrong too much to believe that you studied very deeply or recently.

If you think loving equals punishment, spitefulness, jealousy and blood spilling, then I don't know what to tell you dude. That's what it is in your Bible. If that's love, then I guess you have a different definition than me. Your God causes harm in those things right there, so don't hand me this no causing harm crap.

And besides all that, your religion basically encourages division and I'm right, you're wrong theology. It encourages the browbeating of those who claim to have truth, until the other person either caves or blows up one or the other. Yet that's love? I don't think so.

And just how do you know this? Are you him, do you know his heart? You come off EXTREMELY arrogant to make such claims.

Whether I have kids or not is irrelevant. I'm not a "perfect creator". I'm just a mere mortal man. In fact, even if I chose to procreate I would still not be "Creating" a human being. All I would be doing is shooting craps with DNA.

So is that what you're suggesting God does? God shoots craps with DNA? Evidently he does! That the way the world is. Now all you need is a religion where that makes sense. A religion where the God passes judgments on his crap shoots makes no sense. Especially if God is an inherently bad crap shooter.

You say that Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that humanity is imperfect and God is perfect.

So? Who cares what they believe?

All these people also believe that it makes sense that an all-wise and all-perfect God would be appeased by blood sacrifices too. And I clearly disagree with that notion.

Lemmings run off cliffs too.

Nature is often quite weird.

Just because a lot of people aren't very deep thinkers is no reason for me to follow suit.

But I agree, these are the kinds of arguments that are used to keep people believing in those religions. "Just look around, see how many people believe in this stuff? There you go, it must be TRUE!".

So you're going to actually defend a "loving" God killing off innocent children who's only sins were existing in this time period? Does that REALLY make sense to you?

No Spider. I don't believe in a Zeus-like male-chauvinist Godhead who accepts blood sacrifices to atone sins.

That's the Biblical story in a nutshell Spider. And the crucifixion of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of God is the culmination of those original superstitions.

That's the story in a nutshell. All the rest is superfluous details.

I disagree with the main thrust of the theme.

Moreover, I have a perfectly reasonable explanation to explain it all away.

The Old Testament is nothing more than Zeus-like fables. (not even all that much different actually)

Jesus was a Jewish Mystic (which was not uncommon in those days), his teachings and behavior matches that of a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva perfectly. He actually renounced the poor moral values that had been taught in the Old Testament.

The New Testament is hearsay rumors that try to make Jesus out to be "The Messiah" or "The Christ". The Jews themselves have clearly shown why Jesus did not fulfill any such prophecy for Jesus did not become a King.

The Christians claim that the prophesy will be fulfilled in the "second coming". But that's just wishful thinking.

My explanation makes perfect sense.

Trying to maintain the biblical stories had never made any sense, and that's precisely why there are so many denominations and sects of Christianity. No one can even agree on what these texts are saying. It clearly can't be the word of any supposedly 'all-wise' God because there is nothing 'all-wise' about creating a collection of stories that only serve to have people arguing with each other over that they supposed mean.

So I've solved the problems of the Bible. It's just man-made superstition and rumors. Period.

I've read his "statements of fact" about Christianity and they are total BS. I don't need to be him or know his heart to know he's full of crap.

If you wanna believe that fine.....but don't go acting like you know just what he has and hasn't studied, because you don't.

I didn't ask you any questions. I made a statement of fact: You've never read the Bible or you read it so long ago that you've forgotten everything you read. I don't have a problem with someone rejecting Christianity, I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy. I do have a problem with liars who smear a religion to make themselves appear intelligent or moral.

You forget there is an age of accountability. That specific definition isn't in the bible no. But we are JUDGED. That would involve an action on our part. If one has not been given the chance to make that action of decision, then they aren't accountable for it. Say you come into a country for the first time, you have no idea it's illegal to drive over 30mph because there are no signs eg., you haven't been told, you don't know anyone to have told you, so therefore it would not be righteous for you to be punished for breaking this crime, for you didn't know you were breaking it in the first place. Now it would be different if you had lived in that area for years and knew the speed limit was 30 and sped any way, you are then accountable for you know right from wrong.

So those children that were on earth during the flood, got a straight ticket to heaven, because again they had not the chance to make a decision, had not the chance to choose right over wrong.

I know he hasn't studied the Bible. Either that or he knows what Christians believe and what the Bible says and he lies about that. Either way he's a liar: Lying about studying the Bible or lying about Christianity.

You know nothing, you are slandering him and I will not tolerate it. If you wanna believe he is thinking wrong or doesn't know the truth then fine be my guest. But don't go making up lies about him just to suit your agenda. You have no idea what he has studied or hasn't. Whether his studies have given him the right or wrong answer is up to you, but to say you know for sure what he has studied, or what he knows about the Bible and lies about is again EXTREMELY arrogant.

No, you are wrong and I'll try to make you see that.

There are admittedly disagreements among Christians on some doctrine and beliefs, but there is an undeniable core to what Christians believe. James frequently makes false claims about Christianity, the Bible and Christians. His statements are so wildly false, that they cannot come from a position of any knowledge, but he claims to have studied Christianity for nearly 50 years. After I pressured him on this topic for weeks, he finally admitted that he studied Christianity by studying other religions.

I know that I have offended you by calling him out and that wasn't my purpose. But you are looking at this with one eye and that one is half closed. James lied about studying Christianity and has repeatedly made claims about how deep he was into Christianity, which he then used to bolster his refutations of Christianity.

I like you, you haven't been anything but honest. You haven't pretended to be someone you aren't, you haven't mislead anyone into believing you had more education and experience in Christianity than you do. You and James may share some of the same beliefs, but you are not a liar and deceiver like him. I'm not claiming to know anything that he hasn't shared already in the forums. He has made claims that his grasp of the subject simply cannot support.