The reason why we are all here discussing this is because we all want to see change in our government. We may not agree with each other, but at least we care enough to speak our minds and discuss the issues.

Ms. Harmony is right in her basic message....Either we clean up the mess in this country, or this country will continue to decline.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't hospitals required to treat people (even without insurance) now? If a homeless man comes into a hospital here after being hit by a car, if it's a private hospital, they will stabilize him and then transfer him to a government hospital. There are other programs out there now such as Medicaid and Chips that for the low income.

IMO these programs need to be worked on instead of mandating Obamacare

yes that is one factor. however, medicare and medicaid are for people who we generally accept havent the financial means and who have to go through pretty extensive DOCUMENTATION to 'prove' it

so , you first get all those people who dont want to be bothered with or dont trust such intrusion into their affairs that dont utilize those services although they may need them

you have all those people who are STIGMATIZED for needing them who are too ashamed to use them

and then you have all those who COULD pay but there is no way to PROVE they could pay, so they are billed and the hospital never gets one red cent

than you have those who go in and just arent able to get coverage under the available 'programs'

when you add it all up, its still shutting down hospitals that are important to their communities

and its worth it, to me at least, to make people step up and get their health insured to prevent more of this from happening all around the country

ok....I obviously can't debate while on allergy meds and I can't remember what all I said in reply....so care on

dang....and it was good too

I simply pay the bill when it comes...

duh.

Insurance is a rip off... Have you yet noticed that when it looks like Health care is going down... the INSURANCE companies raise rates or rattle their sabers (vis a vis - we will have to raise our rates terrorisim)...

Bet if you look into the bill you will find monies promised to the insurance companies within the structure...

They WANT this bill to be the law of the land...

WHY? Ask yourself... What would the insurance companies benefit from the Health Care Reform act called Obamacare?

It must be pretty darn good for them to be trying so hard to scare people into wanting it.

Bingo!

Those who can't afford it aren't bitching.

I say let the dumbasses bleed out at the ER door.

These cost are passed on to those with Insurance.

Why do you think my premiums double every ten years?

Insurance is a business, and it is one of the biggest MONEY businesses in this country. Insurance isn't losing money at all. They want us to believe they are, but insurance companies are second only to banks as far as sheer wealth in the U.S.

I can see that health care needs reform. I don't believe that HAS to be funded or operated by the government. I KNOW the insurance companies purposely gauge customers. On top of that, a CEO from Aetna resigned just to create a non-profit organization to FIGHT insurance companies on health care policies. He knew what they were doing was wrong, so he got out so he could do something about it. This is why I've been trying to point out amongst threads just how much power and influence insurance companies have in this country when it comes to law-making. When insurance companies gain a foothold in politics, it evolves from a free market business into legalized extortion. Think about it. They cover cars, homes, businesses, health, death....you name it. Virtually every adult in this country pays for insurance of some kind, and sometimes because the law requires them to do so.

We can make all the arguments about "you have the right to choose not to drive" or whatever. It doesn't change the facts. Insurance is the single most powerful lobbying group in the U.S.

I hardly know which mistaken premise to tackle first!

It's obvious by the way you say you'll 'just pay the bill' that you have never been through getting tens of thousands of dollars in bills from numerous providers in the mail and having your insurance company duck lots of them.

The insurance lobby fought this bill tooth and nail and only accepted this in exchange for not getting TRUE, single-payer government-sponsored health insurance, which would have put them out of business.

If the Republicans get their way, it will be back to Business As Usual for the insurance companies-- using pre-existing conditions to cherry pick the groups they insure and recissions to back date coverage so they won't have to pay anything, They'll will also use ObamaCare as an excuse to gouge the public.

But really, the Republicans are only playing you for fools to gain power-- they'll still have THEIR government, single-payer, paid-for-by-the-taxpayer health care.

And you'll be left holding the bag over a bankruptcy (which the Republicans ALSO made harder to declare during the Bush years).

But don't take my word for it-- price out some operations and care at places like Johns Hopkins, which requires proof of insurance before treatment against that of a metropolitan hospital which, by law, has to treat all who come into the ER. I think you'll be flabbergasted by the difference. I know I was.



-Kerry O.

Please show me where this Health Care Reform act called Obamacare eliminates the Insurance Problem?

Was just thinking about numbers for the insurance companies...

...and the averages listed are actual numbers I found online and rounded off, though it would be nice to find hard data which has proven elusive online...

First, let us assume that 60% of the population is of adult working age....that is about 180 million people.

Now let's assume that on average each spends about...

$1800/year on auto insurance...
$1700/year on life insurance...
$800/year on homeowners insurance...
$5000/year on health insurance...

Total: $9300/year per working adult spent on insurance

$9300 x 180 million = $1.67 trillion

Wow....that seems a bit high, right? Well, not everyone owns a house or car, or buys health or life insurance....so let's modify them a bit.

80% of adults own a vehicle or at least pay insurance on one
62% of adults buy life insurance
67% of adults own a home, but this does not account for families (lets say 60% of the 67% is closer to number of homes owned, dropping this to about 40%)
84% of adults have health insurance

.80 x $1800/year auto = $1440
.62 x $1700/year life = $1054
.40 x $800/year home = $320
.84 x $5000/year health = $4200

The modifier being applied to the dollar amount rather than the population does not matter. It just simplifies the math. Therefore, the new average total per adult is $7014 per year for insurance, about a 24.6% drop.

Therefore...

.754 x $1.67 trillion = $1.26 trillion gross revenue per year

Wow....that's still a lot, and that's just off of the private citizen for only 4 types of insurance. There are plenty more types of insurance not taken into account. And yet, the Insurance Information Institute claims that the U.S. insurance industry only had a net profit of $16.2 billion in 2009, a profit margin of 4.5%. That would mean that the gross revenues of the entire insurance industry in the U.S. would have to be about $360 billion. The math doesn't add up, does it? It's no secret that businesses have been doctoring the books in this country for years. The question is when are they going to be caught and face the music? How long do the American people have to get ripped off?

Government has been doctoring the books also.

How else do you think business that practice 'doctoring' could get away with it.

How can they all get away with it.

People that make Politics a career... sit in legislative seats for decades, pass those seats on to their children (or hand picked sucessors, and legislate to keep such power rather than to make US better...

Time to get rid of the 'dynasties' and 'rotate' the fields.

In other words time for some new blood in congress.

Don't forget the bribes from the lobbyists.

Interesting how those that 'spin' how great so called Obamacare is just keep ignoring this question.

Please show me where this Health Care Reform act called Obamacare eliminates the Insurance Problem?

Perhaps you ignore this because IT DOES NOT...

Instead of addressing the actual problems you instead misdirect to 'human interest' stories that have no real bearing on the OVERWHELMING costs this bill will inject into an allready upside down debt structure.

again...

Pleas show me where Obamacare eliminates the Insurance Problem...!

Obamacare is just like buying a jalopy for the price of a new car and assuming you can drive it without hidden surprise expenses popping up. When the brakes fail then what?


I too notice that instead of facing the financial dilemma we all face and also the possibility of becoming criminals for refusing to become part of a Mandatory Social Program shoved down our throats, we get human interest stories tossed at us. Pull at our heart strings and make us feel sorry for some schmuck that probably did nothing to deserve anything in their life but becasue they are human we must jump sight unseen to suddenly coddle the poor?

Like Welfare there is no reciprocity for those taking advantage of these systems which are akin to Give Aways. We need to fix the car we are driving before we buy a new one we cannot afford!

That is what so many liberal BAKATSURA don't want to understand. If we actually fixed the system we got with appropriate regulations and transparency, regulated the CRAP out of insurance in the first place, Tightened regulation on health care and insurance regulations in general and regulated the way they profit from insuring us, FIXED OUR LEGAL SYSTEM AND REGULATED THE RIDICULOUS COSTS OF THAT, and got rid of the God damn illegal aliens and the welfare give aways to them as well, cut off ALL business subsidies, cut off ALL Foreign aid to anyone NOT our allies, cut back on government, and a litany of other fixes we need would be FAR MORE cost effective and far more effective in general than doing the half azzed BS of throwing another BS program at us and holding out their hands saying "we need more money from you, We need to to give up more," when we have given all we can and then some!


Stop trying to play my heart. i have no respect for the poor! people dig their own holes!

Well let me put it this way-- if you're in the ER getting a blood transfusion, the transfusion won't cure you.

But without it, you'd die.

The system shows a lot of signs that it's heading towards a pretty bad breakdown. Maybe it would be smart to at least put some bandaids on it now before it bleeds out?

-Kerry O.

Is there anything more sadly pathetic than a Luddite dying of a curable disease because they were stubborn until it was too late?

At least with Luddites, they were consistent to the end instead of flip-flopping when they were dealt the joker.

-Kerry O.

Bandaids wont fix a problem with cholesterol... for that you need some internal medical intervention...

but seriously...

Please show me where Obamacare FIXES the insurance problem... I read and I read and all I see is where it will make the insurance problem WORSE.

No, that's you stating your opinion over and over again. I GAVE you an example to follow up on, but you refused to consider it. So, I'll be more blatant-- I and my insurance company paid $3200 for a series of MRAs with contrast dye at the local metropolitan hospital that treats everyone that comes in for anything by law. Even drug dealers and gang bangers with gunshot wounds.

Trouble is, the metropolitan hospital botched the tests, and my neurosurgeon demanded that I have the tests done at Johns Hopkins, who DOES NOT treat people without referrals and insurance. In fact, I had to have the $75 co-pay in hand WHEN I CHECKED IN as an outpatient.

How much did the SAME series cost at Johns Hopkins? $750. And it was done _correctly_.

It only makes sense that the metropolitan hospitals have to do something to make up for the people without insurance or those who declare bankruptcy when they get the bills.

And that accounts for the difference. Better care, cheaper rates because EVERYONE that gets treatment there HAS TO HAVE insurance or is on Medicare/Medicaid. By having everyone kick at least something into the pot under this law, the risks are spread over more patients. And the insurance companies know they're going to have to compete more efficiently to become approved providers for the bigger networks that will result from EVERYONE being part of SOME network.

Easy as ABC.


-Kerry O.

Or, perhaps John Hopkins simply has a better, more qualified administrative staff.

Around here, we have Yale-New Haven, Hartford Hospital, Middlesex Hospital, and Lawrence & Memorial, all of which are private hospitals. But they will all charge you much more than that $750. At Middlesex, I believe the cost is $1500. They will also charge you $1200 to treat and mend a broken finger (single fracture, and $300 per x-ray). An overnight stay at Yale-New Haven costs $1300. Hartford Hospital has a shot that costs $1500. So, private hospitals do not necessarily charge less.

If I had to, I could find a lot more costs because of statements received by my mother (now deceased) and father. The costs above are from my own personal experience and my dad's.