Beware the Fnords!


--- Do not take offence at the below! ---

Really, what's weirder:

Believing in and worshipping nature, the sun, the air, the tree what you can see and touch, and how it affects you in ways you can't describe.

Or:

Believing in and worshipping the son of a carpenter who 2000 years ago, may have walked on water, turned water into wine, fed 5000 people with a fish etc etc?

--- Do not take offence at the above! ---

For the record: I don't believe either, but I'm up for a debate!

well i guess we lasted a while without christians crashing our thread the way we do theirs ha ha ah
anybody doin anything for samhein tonight?
im gonna use my necronomicon along with some golden dawn scrying for some *****in visions

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Someone mentioned Christianity and I wanted to clear up a statement she had made. I didn't mean any offense, sorry to have gotten the thread onto a tangent.

no prob spider...debate is always fun

Ok - so I'll admit it I'm lost.

We have three words Christian - Pagan - witch

I'm ready to be educated - seperately or in any order, Please
define?


By the way did you guys know that Tarot cards are actually the for runner of today's playing Cards. The Joker was added at a later date. People today can still use playing cards instead of the normal deck of Tarot cards.

spider it was bound to happen i mean ive stormed in on ur religion threads shouting "god is dead/ doesnt exist" so hey no problemo

also tarot cards were invented by catholics then banned by them

the difference between pagan & witch is aesthetic i dont like pagan as it has obvious negative connotations, witch is usually applied to wicca by users of magick but in general refers to all forms of it

Wench wrote:

"In a human relationship we would puke at such a notion, yet in a religious sense people are always talking about loving god by becoming his personal servant."

Ummm... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "personal servant" here - but religious people talk about "serving God", which translate into loving others as you would yourself, as opposed to being God's personal servant - which would mean... what? dusting the clouds?

Differentkindofwench, you didn't brush any "chip." There is no "chip." You should understand that it seems a little weird that you have questions about my spiritual beliefs and instead of coming to me you ask someone else to answer your questions. To me that seems strange. Oh well... believe what you want. But unless you hear it from me, do NOT assume it is what I believe.

I'd like to second Redy's motion on getting an explination of a "Christian Pagen Witch" Is that like "Fresh frozen jumbo schrimp"?

Chirsh Wrote:
“Really, what's weirder:
Believing in and worshipping nature,
Or:
Believing in and worshipping the son of a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago”

I think the problem here lies in the semantics of the term “worshipping”.

I think it should be pretty easy to see why someone should “believe” in nature. Just look around and there she is. Just pinch yourself and there she is. It’s pretty clear that nature exists and you are part of her.

Believing in a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago, also requires believing that he was born of a virgin, rose from the dead, was God and wasn’t God simultaneously, and had supreme knowledge of places and things that no other man has ever witnessed.

So on the concept of belief, it seems to me that nature should clearly win out because she can be directly experienced everyday, on the contrary it’s impossible to experience life without experiencing her nature.

Now the worshipping thing is a totally differnet story. In the case of the carpenter to ‘worship’ means to serve, idolize, and obey. It doesn’t necessarily require love or reverence at all. In fact, most people who claim to “love” the carpenter would be the very first to reject him if it turns out that he was just a man and didn’t have anything to offer them. They aren’t out to love him, they are out to get the free tickets to the eternal Disneyland that he promises. And to avoid the alternative eternal damnation. So whether they actually ‘worship’ him or just believe in him out of fear that if they don’t they might end up in a really nasty predicament is hard to say. Most would clearly reject him if it turns out that he has nothing to offer THEM.

To ‘worship’ nature, on the other hand, is a totally differnet thing. Most people who genuinely worship nature don’t think of nature has having an ego. So it’s not at all the same as worshiping someone who is asking you to do things or behave in a certain way in order to get a reward. It’s more of just a reverence and an appreciation of life, AND recognizing that all life is one. It’s all part of the same entity (the universe) which obviously is one nature (i.e. Is the same throughout homogenously).

It’s the reorganization that things are not separate like we might first imagine them to be. It’s the reorganization that we are in fact nature. That we are in fact, the universe, and that there is no separate godhead that rules over separate little egos deciding where they will go after this life based on whether or not they have tickets.

The recognition that we are indeed nature naturally leads to the idea of reincarnation. After all, if we are this universe than that’s what we are. There is nothing else to be (or not be). Even from observation we have seen that nothing in the universe can be created nor destroyed. It can only change form.

This leads us to the very serious question. Are we form? Or are we the thing that is taking the form?

In other words, are we nothing more than a specific pattern of atoms and will we simply cease to exist when those atoms break apart and our bodies decay? Or are we the thing that took the form of that specific pattern of atoms thus implying that when the atoms change form we will continue on to take yet another form.

This question is not an easy one to answer and could go either way. I tend to believe that we are indeed the thing that is taking the form, rather than just a result of the form itself. I believe this because to me, the idea of a form perceiving anything makes not sense. Therefore I believe that I am the thing taking the form (i.e. the underlying spiritual nature of the universe).

Actually in the case of those who believe in the carpenter, they clearly believe that we are not just the form. They believe that we each have a distinct and separate ‘egotistical’ spirit that came into being at the time of our birth but will then be preserved by an all-knowing godhead after our bodies die. Our behavior, AND whether or not we bought the right tickets, will determine where our individual egotistical spirits will spend the rest of eternity. Those little separate egotistical spirits have no hope of every becoming gods in their own right. They will forever be servants to this all-powerful godhead and worship him and do his bidding for all of eternity.

The naturalists believe that our spirit always existed, it didn’t come into being at birth, and it won’t cease to exist when we die. It simply continually reincarnates forever. And not just limited to planet earth, not by a long shot. The spirit is the spirit of the universe and reincarnation can be manifest in any time and place, perhaps even in parts of the universe that are so different from what we experience here that we would feel compelled to call them “separate universes”, but in reality nothing is ‘separate’, all is one.

So anyway, this is certainly not offered as any kind of proof but rather merely as an explanation about how the differnet belief systems are quite different. The idea that we are this universe seems to be pretty obvious. Precisely how that works may not be obvious, the only “real” unanswered question is whether we are just the form, or whether we are the thing that’s taking the form. That is the real question and that question is a valid one whether you believe in a tree or a carpenter.

@Abracadabra

Excellent post, thank you!

Unfortunately, I don't have time to respond in detail at the moment (I'm in work), but I promise I will later.

Ta,

~C.

Chrish, just for the record,…. in the following two sentences, the word “reorganization” is supposed to be “recognition”.

It’s the reorganization (recognition) that things are not separate like we might first imagine them to be. It’s the reorganization (recognition) that we are in fact nature

There may be other typos as well, I just woke up and my brain isn’t fully functioning yet.

Brains are meant to function fully?

Eljay, the quote you took from me, I took from Abra.

LadyV, You've already proven Sister Shaman's definition wrong with your comment to Spider. So, I'm all atwitter and agog. You've had two people request definitions politely, that didn't seem to work, so here ya go, let's have it what DO YOU'RE self-imposed labels mean.

I'll retract the phrase self-imposed, as I've just realized that too is an assumption on my part.

Differentkindofwench, I'm sorry that I'm not responding to other's requests as fast as you would like me to, but I do have a life outside of the internet.

A couple of people have asked about my personal beliefs so here I am ready to explain my personal beliefs. However, be forwarned, I will IGNORE those who have their minds already made up about my spiritual beliefs and are only here to "debate" (argue) or to proselytize. I'm not ignorant of what the Holy Bible says. In fact I was a fanatical fundamentalist Christian for 10 years attending pentecostal churches like The Church of God on a regular basis. I also study other texts such as "The Lost Books of The Bible," "The Pistis Sophia," "The Nag Hammadi Library," and "The Apocrypha." So save us all some time and don't bother trying to convince me that my beliefs are an "oxymoron," wrong, or a lie from the devil himself, because many have tried and have failed to sway me from my beliefs. "Debate" (argue) amongst yourselves but I won't participate.

Everything I say here does not represent what every person who calls themselves a Christian Pagan Witch, Christopagan, Christian Witch, or Christian Wiccan believes in. Just like the different denominations within Christianity differ on doctrines and theologies so do we Pagans.

I'm a Christian Pagan Witch.

I'm a Pagan who has chosen the God of the Holy Bible as their Higher Power. I worship God the Father, Mother Goddess (The Holy Spirit) and their son Jesus the Christ. There are many forms of the Goddess that Christian Pagan Witches, Christopagans, Christian Witches, and Christian Wiccans believe in, such as the Holy Spirit, blessed Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, Sophia and Shekhinah all of which can be found within “The Holy Bible,” “The Pistis Sophia,” “The Nag Hammadi Library” and “The Lost Books of the Bible.” Which form of the Goddess one chooses to honor depends upon the person. I prefer to see the Goddess as the Holy Spirit. I focus mainly on the teachings of Jesus whereas modern day Christianity focus on the teachings of Paul... which I like to call Paulianity.

I look to other religious and spiritual beliefs for spiritual guidance such as Satanism (LaVeyan Satanism NOT Luciferian Satanism… there is a difference), Buddhism, Native American Spirituality, and varying aspects of Paganism and Neopaganism. I take from these various beliefs and philosophies what is beneficial to me and leave what is not beneficial to me.

I practice witchcraft. In spite of popular belief witchcraft is not a religion. Witchcraft is the practice of magic. One definition of magick is “the art and science of causing change to occur in conformity with will.” Another definition of magic is “magick is conscious evolution through directing energy.” Witchcraft can be coupled with any religion or no religion. An athiest can practice witchcraft. I choose to practice witchcraft with the aid of my chosen Higher Powers.

I posted the following in another thread, I thought I should post it here.

In Exodus 22:18 the Hebrew word used to describe the that should be killed is "m'khashepah" which means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others such as causing their death or loss of property. When this verse was translated and the word "m'khashepah" was translated to "witch" I feel is an extremely inaccurate translation. Not every witch practices their craft to harm others. For that matter not every witch is a woman. There have been plenty of male witches throughout history. And no "warlock" does not mean a male witch, it means "an oathbreacker."

In Deuteronomy 18:10-11 the following are the original hebrew words used to describe those who are condemned...

yid'oni: persons who make contact with spirits who are not of God.

sho'el 'ov: making forbidden contact with the dead

qosem q'samim: predicting the future by using lots or a similar system.

m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature.

m'nachesh an enchanter, perhaps a snake charmer, because "nachash" means snake.

chover chavar: use of knot-tying to perform magic.

m'khaseph: an evil sorcerer (as in Exodus 22:18); a person using spoken spells to harm others.

doresh 'el hametim: a person who makes contact with the dead - probably by another method than sho'el 'ov.

It is important to point out that the descriptions of the type of people above do not describe every Pagan, Wiccan, or Witch that has every lived. Such practices as described above are not requirements to be a Pagan, Wiccan, or Witch. Personally I only participate in 2 of them... m'onen & qosem q'samim... but I don't think God is going to send me to hell... if there is a hell... for it.

In Galatians 5:19-20 & Revelations 21:8 the key word here is the Greek word "pharmakia" from which the English words "pharmacy," "pharmaceuticals," and "pharmacology" are derived. Interpreted literally, it refers to "the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others." So it's safe to say, that this scripture doesn't speak of just ordinary "witchcraft" but rather something more specific, "the practice of preparing poisonous potions to harm or kill others." And as I stated earlier not every Witch practices their craft to harm others. In fact most have strict personal codes of ethics.

The use of Magick can be found within a lot of denominations within Christianity. Take for instance pentecostal denominations such as The Church of God, The Assemblies of God, The Church of Jesus Christ, among many others. Such denominations believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as spoken of in Acts chapter 2. They believe that when you are Baptized with the Holy Spirit you will become under the influence of the Holy Spirit and speak in an unknown heavenly language, dance under the influence of the Holy Spirit in worship to God, sometimes even have fits of "holy laughter" which is the joy of the Lord coming upon you refreshing you, and sometimes the Holy Spirit will bless you to give you the ability to interpret the "tongues" that are being spoken within the church to benefit the entire Body of Christ. To me this sounds a lot like becoming possessed by an unknown entity. Such possessions occur regularly in religions like Vodou (Voodoo) and Santeria, which many fanatical fundamentalist Christians consider to be evil and "of the devil." Pentecostals also believe in the practice of "laying on of hands" for the healing of physical ailments and the betterment of negative circumstances. To me this is a lot like the practice of Reiki. Pentecostals also used annointing oil (olive oil) before certain prayers. Many Pagans, Wiccans and Witches, use many annointing oils (essential oils, olive oils, ect) before and during prayers and spells. Catholicism is full of ritualistic symbolic magick... incense, oils, drinking from a chalice, eating of bread, prayers in the form of repeatative chants, ect. ... all of which are used by many Pagans, Wiccans, and Witches. Magick is Magick... it is within Christianity as well as Paganism, Wicca, and Witchcraft. The only difference is you will never really find a Christian who will admit that what they practice is Magick. The word Magick is so very taboo within Christianity.

LadyValkyrie37,

I have to disagree with your definition of kashaph. Every definition I can find agrees perfectly with the one listed below.

kashaph
==============================================================
1) (Piel) to practice witchcraft or sorcery, use witchcraft

a) sorcerer, sorceress (participle)
==============================================================

Anyone who practices magic is showing faith in themselves and their own "power" and rejecting God, which is why God rejects such people. God wants us to depend upon Him and not ourselves. We fail, God does not.

i dont really think christianity and witchcraft can mix, its kinda like the people who say "im a jew for jesus" thats a contradictory statement as is christian witch
also doesnt the bible denounce magick? thou shalt not suffer a witch, etc?

Wench;

Ah.... that explains it. Thank's for clearing that up.

Spider, I look at "magic" (spelled any way desired) as a co-creation type of thing.