thats enough....stop already..learn to ignore each other ...this makes the threads a place of drama which most of us do not want to deal with...take it to email or just shut up already

OK folks - please make sure to keep the debate civil. These are sensitive subjects that people feel passionate about, so we all need to make sure we don't let our tempers get the best of us.

You can debate the message, but dont attack the messenger. Make sure to stay on the right side of that line. And if you can't do that, then take a break and walk away from your keyboard.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Spider, no offense man, but how is it possible to have higher morals than that which the Bible teaches? I mean, those morals that u do have, are tied right back to the Bible. EVERY human being whether Christian or not, God has given to them some sort of general knowledge of good and wrong. some part, even tho they have never heard of the 10 Commandments, are still stuck right in the back of ppl's minds even tho they dont realize it.

and as for the morals thing, im not saying u dont have good ones, all im saying is that the bible preaches the highest level of good morals ever. It's the PEOPLE that "claim" to be Christians, that act differently that contradict the Bible to make it seem like it's not true.

MrRight2008,

I was quoting Abra. I am a Christian and I accept the commandments as the foundation of good morality.

MrRight2008 said:

It's the PEOPLE that "claim" to be Christians, that act differently that contradict the Bible to make it seem like it's not true.

Excellent point.

Crucify me, now!!!

Abra wrote: "Christianity is CONSTANTLY denouncing everyone else’s religion by claiming that it is the ONLY word of God! When Christians stop claiming that their religion is the ONLY one, then I’ll stop claiming that mine is the ONLY one"

What many of the christians here seem to miss is that many of us that are hesitant about chistianity feel that way because we have had to listen to people insist that their way is the only way and unbelievers will go to *hell*...

Also, I see people here talking about how they are somehow persecuted for being Chrisitian in the US. That is bizarre to me. Christianity is by far the most prevelent religion in the US so I'm not sure how being in the majority is so difficult??!!??

Conversely, I think my atheist and pagen friends have faced true prejudice- many risk losing their jobs should they even mention their beliefs never mind proselitize freely as I have seen christians do...

For myself I truly try to respect everyone's beliefs, and I admire all who live by their codes and put effort into making their actions reflect their words and try to be the best that they can with the life they were given ... I admire these people regardless of what set of beliefs prompts them to behave harmlessly and helpfully when possible... but I do not need you to tell me what is right for me, my own convictions are as clear and precious to me as your beliefs are to you. I will not tell you that you are stupid or foolish for your beliefs- i request the same courtesy from others...

My god has never spoken to or written to me. But I believe I feel gods presense in the world and that if I am mindful and appreciative of what I have here in this life then I am pleasing god in a way by living and not just existing and waiting for death and an afterlife...

Peace and a good night to all.

Poet may I have a crumpet please?

of course Anoasis!! **passes Anoasis a crumpet**

Oh, thank you my dear...

it is delicious... especially the jam...

yummm.....

now let us debate whether strawberry is better than blackberry....

No wait... Orange Marmalade is the ONLY JAM that brings ture happiness.... those who use other jams are just fooling themselves...

Hee hee...

I hope everyone else is off meditating...

And the post where I made fun of the religious arguments was my 666 post...

oh no... I repent, I repent...

Hmmm.... seems like I'm the one who needs to meditate now....

My apologies... must be all the sugar.

Voil;

"Faith is faith and fact is fact"

Ah.... the voice of reason. Your entire post - bravo! Thank you for bringing the thread back on track. Or at least for the attempt.

lj

"In the final analysis there is no solution to man's progress
but the day's honest work, the day's honest decisions, the
day's generous utterances and the day's good deed."

*Clare Booth Luce

I like honey...








...on my crumpet.

there has been no other savior that has had an imact on the human race as that of jesus christ. who i for one believe with all my heart is the risen son of god. the key word is risen.can i prove he is the son of god and by his blood i am saved. no but u cant prove me wrong either.besides if im right which i am i have inhereted the kingdom of god. if im wrong which im not all i have lost is alot of misery and imoral living that only brings disaster such as aids,alchoholism,drug adiction,more broken homes than nessesary,unwanted pregnancy which in some cases leads to murder of a helpless baby yes they can feel pain,hate ,social injustice, to name a few. this is one mans belief who is saved not by being good or ever can i earn it but by the loving grace of god.

Abra,

These are statements made in response to another's post - I use it as a reference for my questions.


I actually have higher morals that what Christianity teaches anyway so why would I want to apply the Bible to my life? To do so would only bring me down.
*** Could you cite an example of this for me. ***

Just look at how many bigoted hateful Christians there are. The Bible creates monsters!
*** I don't believe this is as much a statement of truth, than one of perception. Is it that the bible has created these monsters, or are they monsters mis-interpreting the bible to support their agenda's? Charles Mason comes to mind. I don't think for one second that the bible created what Manson became - but he was certainly a Monster who used the bible. Without really knowing just ecactly who you are refering to - then the appearance of your statement is just what it says - the bible creates monsters. It does not imply that you are not claiming that anyone who refers to it is not lumped in this generality.
I get the feeling that you tend to assume that all "christians" interpret the bible in a particular way which indicts the scriptures - rather than throwing doubt on the interpretation.

One guy even uses it as an excuse to punish little children and tell them that they are horrible sinners giving them a guilt complex and plaguing them with unnecessary shame and paranoia for the rest of their lives.
*** You are being disingenuous if you don't think there are those of us who interpret this as a back door insult to Spider.
You may not have intended that - but if so - you have not been reading this thread. Because I immediately equated "one guy" with Spider, and it wasn't a stretch. We all know you're too smart to be that naive.

The book is pure evil and makes monsters out of people. You can see examples of this all over the place.
*** Pure evil? Books don't make monsters out of people, actions and perceptions do. The bible doesn't create bigots - misinterpretations of the message creates bigots. Taking references out of context to prove a point - rather than the point being derived from correct exegesis is often what the "monster" does. Perhaps in your experiences - you've witnessed Monsters being created from what you believe has been their experience with the bible - I know I have. However, the number of people I have known who's life was completely turned around from the bible - that is the "calming of the savage beast" as it were, far outnumbers those who were normal loving people who somehow turned into monsters because of the bible. The actual words had nothing to do with their becoming monsters, as much as their not understanding that which they refer to when they quote it to try and "prove their point".


I try to save people from this terrible fate.
*** Then disprove their interpretation of it, rather than using it to prove your point that it's wrong.

*** I would tend not to dismiss your posts if you'd cite some examples and references to the statements you make that you assume I should see as obvious.

DANG – YOU GUYS BEEN BUSY

Sorry, but have to catch here.

RE: Mythology
Rayspark, feral, Spider – whoever else believes that Christianity is NOT myth.

No one can discredit that there are historically documented places and people described in the texts of the Bible. However, the same holds true for a great many other mythical documents. Even science fiction often has a basis in reality – Stephen King uses real people and places in many of his stories.

Here’s a test I challenge anyone to take. WITHOUT using the Bible prove that the stories within them happened and included the main characters, then prove the main characters existed. Remember, saying that Pontius Pilot existed means nothing, if you can’t show relevancy between Pilot and any of the stories or main religious characters from those stories.

The lack of scholars to do so, is what makes Christianity as much a myth as any other religion.

You can not use a thing in defense of the thing. There must be enough collaborating evidence outside the thing to make it fact rather than fiction.

The topic here is to consider a more scientific approach to the consistancies between religions. I will try to do that, as soon as I've responded to what's been hap'nin since I've been gone.

MrRight says:
“”but i DO happen to know the roots of my religion, and happen to know that according to Biblical Scripture, that Christianity is the ONLY way. others such as buddha, hare krishna, and all these other so called deities, have only merely said "Follow me, I'll show you the way."”

The Bible says, Christianity is the ONLY way, therefore it must be true. If believing meant you had to have other verifiable sources in order to believe – it would not require faith. Religion is faith based because there is no substantiating evidence to support the believe system. Using the Bible to confirm its’ contents is circular pattern of endless redundancy and can never provide more than what faith alone allows.

Abra: “”Easier to be gay than be athiest? Damn Red, you are screwed my friend (sorry, I truly am kidding, but damn I couldn't resist that one). Let me make it even easier. Be you - have at it!!!!””

Cracked me up! You know I lived in a closet that was stuffed inside a box till I was like 21 or so. I finally broke the box open and admitted I was an atheist. Might be why it took me another 20 some years to break out of the dam n closet. LOL!

MrRight
Prophecy – you can discredit all the stories you read about other peoples prophecy coming to pass, but you expect others to believe in Bible prophecy. Sir, that has to do with faith, not truth. How can you prove a prophecy when there is not proof outside your Bible of the person giving it?

Robm – “”Now, my questions for everyone who doesn't believe are: If god is all powerful, could he not have made thousands of reasons for you to doubt?”” For what purpose? IF God exists and that God created life in its’ image, why would it need to be tested?
“” If he wants you to live in faith, and not proof, would he not have in wisdom done so?”” I have to assume you meant if he wanted to provide proof, wouldn’t he have provided it – But Christians constantly say he did provide the proof. The problem is, ‘according the next “IF’ condition, he provided better, more physical, proof against the proof that Christians claim exist.

“” If he could create the earth, could he not create the earth with dinosaur bones, evidence that rocks are millions of years old, and anything else you want to mention? “” If we were created to solve a puzzle or a mystery, I guess God could plant any number of facades, but then it might have been wiser to create Rubics cube 5,000 years ago – and be done with it.

“”Yes, faith is based on belief.”” Faith is a belief, its simply a believe in something for which there is no evidence/proof.

“” So, however, is science. Science is based on the belief that what we see is what we get. Science is based on believing that our findings are right, and not merely misguided. ‘’ We could all stand to broaden our scope. Try this link, its’ the best I can do at the moment. It explains what Scientific Method is, what it’s based on, how it works. This will help you understand what makes science different from faith. Consider it dessert on top of the food for thought you offer. http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node5.html

“”Reality, and fact, are simply too perfect to be defined by humanities imperfect existence. So, unless you don't believe in anything at all you have faith in something.
Anyone else want some food for though?””
I do have faith in some things, there is nothing wrong with faith. Faith can often fill a hole, like a dentist fills a cavity. It can make us stronger, if only because we stop trying to fill the hole and live instead.


NOW I can get on with finding some 'evidence' pertaining to the topic.

Here’s a start: www.pantheon.org/articles/h/horus.html


One of the most popular goddesses in Egypt. Isis belongs to the Ennead of Heliopolis, and according to the Heliopolitan genealogy is a daughter of Seb and Nut, sister and wife of Osiris. Possibly she was originally the personification of the throne (her name is written with the hieroglyph for throne), and as such she was an important source of the pharaoh's power. In the Hellenistic time Isis was the protrectress of sailors.
In the Osiris myths she searched for her husband's body, who was killed by her brother Seth. She retrieved and reassembled the body, and in this connection she took on the role of a goddess of the dead and of the funeral rights. Isis impregnated herself from the Osiris' body and gave birth to Horus in the swamps of Khemnis in the Nile Delta. Here she raised her son in secret and kept him far away from Seth. Horus later defeated Seth and became the first ruler of a united Egypt. Isis, as mother of Horus, was by extension regarded as the mother and protectress of the pharaoh's. She was worshipped as the divine mother-goddess, faithful consort of Osiris, and dedicated mother of Horus.
Isis was depicted as a woman with the solar disk between the cow horns on her head (an analogy with the goddess Hathor) or crowned with a thrown, but also with the child Horus sitting on her lap. A vulture was sometimes seen incorporated in her crown. Also she was sometimes depicted as a kite above the mummified body of Osiris. Isis' popularity lasted far into the Roman era. She had her own priests and many temples were erected in her honor. On the island of Philae in the Nile delta her largest temple was situated (it was transferred to the island Agilkia in 1975-1980).

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/horus.html

The name "Horus" is a general catchall for multiple deities, the most famous of whom is Harseisis (Heru-sa-Aset) or Horus-son-of-Isis (sometimes called Horus the Younger) who was conceived after the death of his father, Osiris, and who later avenged him. In all the Horus deities the traits of kingship, sky and solar symbology, and victory reoccur. As the prototype of the earthly king, there were as many Horus gods as there were rulers of Egypt, if not more.

Horus deities are frequently depicted as hawks or hawk-headed men, though some are represented as fully human. The pharaoh was considered to be the Living Horus, the temporal stand-in for Horus in the earthly domain. As the opponent of Seth (who, though initially an Upper Egyptian deity himself, later came to represent not only Lower Egypt but the desert surrounding Egypt), Horus is alternately a brother vying for the throne and unification of Egypt (Horus the Elder), or a royal heir come to reclaim his inheritance (Horus the Younger).

So far I can make a couple conclusions. That Horus as a naked child sitting on his mothers’ lap is reminiscent on the Virgin with child pictures. Not much to go on here.

Also, because “The name "Horus" is a general catchall for multiple deities” could explain how one might mistake Horus, to be a deity of multiple character (father, son, spirit) though it would be a stretch.

Also, I didn’t read ALL the Horus stories, BUT, put them all together and it might be possible to find many similarities with Jesus stories, but it doesn’t hold water in the case of substantiating the Author who the Opening Post was credited to.

I think, I’ll try looking at another comparison model and leave Horus to its multiplicity.

Redy;

I don't think I quite understan what you mean by asking for proof that the people within the Bible did not exist without there being documentation outside of the bible. We have the writtings of Josephus which spoke of many of the people in the bible - but why would we believe what he wrote any more than what Luke, or Mark, or Matthew wrote? What's to say that the writings of Homer or Sophocles are any more authentic than the bible? How can we be sure that anything written about the crusades weren't fiction? I'm sure that a careful examination of science throughout history will reveal more fiction than the bible. When we were kids, smoking was thought as an actual health aid. "Scientifically proven" the ads said. I seem to remember science saying that Pluto was a planet. I guess now it's not. So - I don't quite understand the relevance behind your challenge to prove what is said in the bible by other means. Anything written on the book of Job and it's participants would never have been written without the book of Job - since it's existance can only be estimated - the original long ago having disappeared. We have the dead sea scrolls to substanciate Isaiah - about 700 bc (or bce for the politically correct) as to the original writing - but I don't think there were a lot of books written at the time to give us proof that Isaiah existed outside of the bible itself. So does that mean Isaiah was a mythical character?

Just trying to get a grasp of what you're trying to demonstrate here.

lj