please send photos of Grizzly having a friendly chat with you...

The idea is that you don't go poking them with sharp sticks and they'll leave you alone. This mentality might apply to humans too.
Let's not confuse the "war on terror" with Iraq either. You seem to be more intelligent than your average bear to fall for that ol' line.

Well spotted...nooo I have never fallen for that line...for one its an oxymoron...

Hey Kid!

You can also try giving the grizzly a nice fish. Sometimes if their belly is full of fish they are much too content to be bothered with you...

Like I said before. Torture during interrogation has gone on since there has been war.
You think the US is guilt free? In Viet Nam, prisoners were routinely tortured. The military has special units specificly trained in tourture tactics. Get your head out of the sand and read up.
Here is a portion of the CIA handbook,declassified. The loophole is, if it's illegal for the US then, they hire mercs to do it.
KUBARK was a U.S. Central Intelligence Agency cryptonym for the CIA Headquarters.

The cryptonym KUBARK appears in the title of a 1963 CIA document KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation which describes interrogation techniques, including, among other things, "coercive counterintelligence interrogation of resistant sources". The manual was one of two torture manuals declassified by the U.S. government in 1997.

The manual deals exclusively with interrogation.[1] Both manuals have an entire chapter devoted to "coercive techniques." It recommends arresting suspects early in the morning by surprise, blindfolding them, and stripping them naked. Suspects should be held incommunicado and should be deprived of any kind of normal routine in eating and sleeping. Interrogation rooms should be windowless, soundproof, dark and without toilets.

The manual advises that torture techniques can backfire and that the threat of pain is often more effective than pain itself. The manuals describe coercive techniques to be used "to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist." These techniques include prolonged constraint, prolonged exertion, extremes of heat, cold, or moisture, deprivation of food or sleep, disrupting routines, solitary confinement, threats of pain, deprivation of sensory stimuli, hypnosis, and use of drugs or placebos. [2] [4]

By 1967, the CIA was running approximately 40 interrogation centers through its Phoenix Program in South Vietnam. Eventually the CIA’s psychological methods were spread worldwide through the U.S. Agency for International Development’s Public Safety program and U.S. Army Mobile Training Teams.[3] Sections of these manuals were used to create a later CIA document, Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual - 1983.

After Congress began investigating reports of Central American atrocities in the mid 1980s, particularly in Honduras, the CIA's "Human Resource Exploitation" manual was hand edited to alter passages that appeared to advocate coercion and stress techniques to be used on prisoners. CIA officials attached a new prologue page on the manual stating:

"The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults or exposure to inhumane treatment of any kind as an aid to interrogation is prohibited by law, both international and domestic; it is neither authorized nor condoned"[5]

One section states:

"Interrogations conducted under compulsion or duress are especially likely to involve illegality. . . . Therefore, prior approval at the higher level must be obtained for the interrogation of any source against his will under any of the following circumstances: If bodily harm is inflicted; if medical, chemical or electric methods or materials are used to induce acquiescence.[6]"

stylishdotcom,

Totally agree with the 'grizzly' metaphor.

"... If Im confronted by a crazed animal who wants to attack, I'm affraid there is no negotiating to be done, I will do what I have to defend my self..."

But I'm afraid you're confusing who plays the part of the Grizzly around the globe!!!

Anyhow, I agree with the general premise,
... just using a mirror!

voil said"But I'm afraid you're confusing who plays the part of the Grizzly around the globe!!!"

truer words were never spoken on a chatroom

Really the united states is a superpower whether its a good superpower or a bad superpower is up 2 debate, but when a country is as powerfull as the USA it has a responsability to the rest of the world not to abuse that power and not to sink to the same morality level as the fundamentalists outside of it who only see its negative aspects

The gizzly metaphor....yes it has to be clear who is winding who up first...for the grizzly to attack he must have a motive...if he didnt attack I would not need to defend myself. A good point well made by you all.

lizardking19,

If we could inject your wisdom and lucidity to a critical mass of 19 year olds around the globe, the future of the human race would be assured.

A question for you: do you share these values and outlooks on 'life' with friends your age? (19-25yrs old)

Just curious.

lets hope not
and
2 != to

too many of these words of wisdom and lucidity lacked depth or understanding

school != skol

I'm just saying this because some of the comments I have read here make me wince.

For the record, as I have said before, I oppose torture of prisoners on the basis of cruelty. I also oppose terrorism on the same basis. So there is the dilemma people are wrestling with. Many of you here will favor one over the other it seems. For me if I had to choose which I hate more I would not like to do so. Terrorists have to be fought by special means, but I'm not sure torture is in the mix.

philosopher,

I will try to be charitable, but if you call this post of yours worthy of even the most superficial understanding, least bit of wisdom, and bare trace of lucidity, you must hav written it under the influence.

Put your thinking hat on 'philosopher'.

You make little to no sense!!! Circumtances and relativism are the guides of the weakest and most cowardly represantatives of our race.

Morals, ehtics, democracy, rule of law, has theoretically served to elevate humans from their tribal, barbaric and reptilian brain instincts, to a more civilized and illuminated possibility for civilizations.

I use the words 'theoretical', and 'possibility' because 2500 after Socrates, 2000 years after Jesus Christ, after the fight our ancestors wielded through the dark ages, the fall of monarchies, the emergence of democracy, and rule of law societies, the birth of equality in human rights, and interntinal laws,
... have not been sufficient to evacuate the confusion and dark ages mentality responsible for this 'false' and 'perverse' dilemma of reverting back to barbarism simply because it is still in us to be barbarians.

That was my point with my compliments to 'lizardking19'. He, and maybe others from his generation, appears to be healed from the confusion and 'old testament' dilemmas which obviously still afflict you 'philosopher' and many others of our generation.

I firmly believe you reacted, and didn't give yourself time to think your thoughts through. You can do much better than those half baked comments 'philosopher'.

Its funny Voil.
I too have found lizardkings intelligence, maturity, and comprehension to belie his age. He is a mere 19 and yet reading his posts one would think he was at least twice that.

I think there is little worry that he might fall into the influence of someone of lesser foresight and intelligence for his wisdom also seems very advanced!

I have added him to my friends list, not because I thought I might teach him something but rather that I might learn from him. I am proud and honored that he accepted my invitation!

I find that if I torture them with my cookies this makes muriel very happy!!!!!!

OK fine, but I have a hard time with cute little typing shortcuts of the now generation.

As for the rest of that other stuff you typed, your comments are valid and well made but have nothing to do with my comment.

I made a nice point, in opposition to torture and pointed out a dilemma. If that stuff is too difficult to make sense out of take a little time to think about it.

I could ease up on the Lizard king a little, so I'll accept that criticism, but please, spell things in a regular manner. I have issues with reading improperly spelled and arranged sentences. I can do it, but I prefer not to, mainly because it is an annoyance.

The United States as a superpower? Well, not so much a super power as you might think. Everything done in this world is done in public, nobody is in a vacuum. The United States, like other countries has to get along with others.

Keep in mind that for some number of years the United States has done a lot to help insure the peace and prosperity, and free trade within the world. Without the enormous effort of the United States, and the sacrifice made by the American people, most of the world right now would be in the hand of despots.

In the tradition of the great thinkers who framed our constitution and bill of rights, Americans have endeavored to help others realize these freedoms in their lives and countries as well. Now when times are difficult with the rise of Islamic Fascists, people want to desert the United States in droves, just in the name of criticizing the big guy, without regard for the reasoning behind the country's actions.

If you don't support the countries who are supporting your freedoms and your way of life, eventually you may find that your way of life is no longer.

I'm not so easily impressed. I recognize good points when made, but develop them with a little more detail.

I still do not support torture.

dont ease up on me! I need nasty old people to cut my metaphorical teeth on! in the immortal words of our commander in chief "bring it on!"

and no my peers do not generally share my viewpoints as most of them are too busy watching reality tv and building shrines to narcissims on myspace

and dude if u think my leet speak is uncouth you have not been reading many blogs
most people on th intrnt cnt spll 4 sht lol

thank u all 4 ur flattery it has bloated my swelled head to twice its normal roundness and also the 19 in my name is a reference to the magic number in storys by stephen king, im actually 18 na highschool dropout

Bravo, Bravo!!!!

This point may already
have been made, but
I don't support torture
because it doesn't work.

You torture someone
like Khaled Sheikh Muhammed
long enough and they'll
admit to anything.

They'll say they wear women's panties.

It doesn't make it true.

There are much more effective
ways of breaking someone down
and getting the truth out of
them, like sleep deprivation.

So everyone who's beating their
chests about going after terrorists
by pulling out a suspect's fingernails,
just chill!

It doesn't work!

philosopher

You wrote:
"... As for the rest of that other stuff you typed, your comments are valid and well made but have nothing to do with my comment..."

My post had everything to do with your previous comment. It suggests that your perspective is a dialectic mess.

"... I made a nice point, in opposition to torture and pointed out a dilemma. If that stuff is too difficult to make sense out of take a little time to think about it..."

What you call your 'nice point' in your personnal dilemma between the diginity of human rights, and the barbaric of primate reptilian brain, was probably seen as a 'nice point' to some, when Socrates and Jesus Christ pointed to the dilemma some 2300 years ago.

But I pain to inform you that is is hardly a dilemma today upon which "... we should take a little time to think about..." as you suggest.
The moral and ethical thinking, constitutions, and legislations of Western nations today, has had that debate and has settled for the diginity of human rights long ago. Many intances of failure against our own moral, ethical and legal foundations, but the foundations are certainly not up for "... a little time to think about". But some 'flatearthers' still hear the primitive sirens!!!

That was exactly the point of my post when I wrote:
"... 2500 after Socrates,
2000 years after Jesus Christ,
after the fight our ancestors wielded through the dark ages, the fall of monarchies,
the emergence of democracy,
and rule of law societies,
the birth of equality in human rights,
and interntinal laws,
... have not been sufficient to evacuate the confusion and dark ages mentality, responsible for this 'false' and 'perverse' dilemma some of you people still have, of reverting back to barbarism simply because it is still in us to be barbarians..."



If you still need time to think about it for yourself 'philosopher', that is your prerogative, but your nation, the US, has long ago settled the question, with its own Constitution, and its 'dilemma free' collaborative efforts to defend and promote democracy, rule of law, and human rights within its own borders, and around the globe.

And be real clear 'philosopher' that your nation, along with the very large majority of other western nations, have no 'dilemma' with the fact that you cannot defend, promote, and install democracy, rule of law, and human rights around the globe through barbaric, and primitve violations of the very principles you defend.

Hopefully 'philosopher', these complimentary explanations, will help you understand that my previous post had everything to do with your personnal, and somewhat irrelevant 'dilemma'.

perhaps as human technology advances, the human brain advances much more slowly. we split the atom and visited the moon yet there r still poeple who consider others "infidels" and people who hate them equally
as such there is a barbaric feud between multiple ways of thinking and it only grows worse bcause as our means to torture become nastier our reasoning 4 y not to torture does not bcome anymore apparent