both sets of my grandparents lasted til death do us part

all my aunts, uncles and parents grew up in a small town and married young

my mother learned how to cook, can, garden, sew as a teenager
so that she would be a good wife/mother
she learned how to walk in heels with a book on her head
and sit like a lady

that was the early sixties..

ten years later it was the seventies and more women were entering
college and the work force and divorce became more acceptable

by the 80's my mother ( like many women) was a single mom with three kids
going back to get her degree and going full force into a career

used to be a one or the other choice
you could be a stay at home mother and homemaker or you would have a career
but since then..women have juggled both
now..in order to do that..women have had to become

independent as in less dependent on someone else
strong, confident in order to compete in a 'man's world'
now women can enter almost any field
they can be a fire fighter, a police woman or join the military
or they can be a doctor or a lawyer or a judge
but yet still deal with the glass ceiling

generations of women fought hard for us to get here

but by doing this.. the 'traditional' family has also gone thru
a transition..with dual career couples now being the norm



some men ( not all) have had to deal with how they feel
if their wife makes more then they do or has a more prestigious job
some men ( not all) have had to deal with taking on more of the child care
child rearing responsibilities, house hold chores because their wife
has a job in which she is expected to put in long hours or travel

some men ( not all) look back to the old days with nostalgia wishing
that they could find a woman that was more like dear old mom
or a mail order bride

when did these issues start to occur?

have their been repercussions that are now damaging our chances of having a lasting relationship?

are there some positive advancements we have made?

the reason I ask this is because I saw a thread that said
women are posting that they no longer need or require someone to care for them ....and men and women were getting rather heated on both sides


have we become so independent that dependent has become a dirty word?

most of us have been married or in a long term relationship

we are adults so let's get at what the root of problem might really be..

is not really understanding the problems.
making simple things too complex, and looking for ways to make the complex oversimplified and easily digested.


Do you perceive a problem because you think you don't have what your grandparents do/did?


Dawn of humans?

What are the actual issues:

There you go.
That's ultimately the problem.
When do people have to deal with how they feel?
When they don't feel good, something feels bad, and/or how they expect they should feel isn't how they are feeling.
What keeps people from feeling good? Oppression against freedom to immediately gratify perceived needs and wants, too many or too few choices.
What makes people feel bad? Fear.
What teaches expectations? The village that raised them and they continue to live.


The only reason to have a lasting romantic relationship is for the purposes of child creation in order to provide a child a stable enough environment to keep it alive long enough, and trained enough, to be able to survive in the environment in which it exists, and for multigenerational goal fulfillment (e.g. buy land, build a home and business, pass it to the next gen, perpetuate family/family name)
i.e. family and kids.

Perpetual long term emotional gratification for the sake of emotional gratification from a single source, or worship of an idea (love) as a new god and sole reason for existence of the relationship, is simply not something people are capable of.


IMO not really.
No positive, no negative.
It's just change. Everything has good consequences, everything has bad consequences.
People are still motivated by the same things they've been motivated by for hundreds of thousands of years.
There is no advancement, there is only determining what works for a while as the most efficient means of fulfilling the perceived needs of the people in your perceived group, and the most efficient means of climbing to the highest rung of the social hierarchy in order to guarantee the group effort lands on you before other people.

i.e. 'whoever is first in line gets first shot. whoever kills the woolly mammoth gets to eat the liver.'

Nothing really "advances."
We're all just competing for the best place in line to guarantee we're the ones that benefit the most after everyone has weakened the woolly mammoth, while maintaining a safe distance so when the woolly mammoth charges and begins to eat people we are in a position to outrun the next guy.


Dependent has come to have a lot of negative connotations.
But we have not become independent.
No real such thing as independent.
People are interdependent.
More so now than ever.
Now there is a greater need for individual specialization.
That makes people overly dependent upon people they don't know. Strangers.
Overly dependent upon strangers = lack of identity.
Not enough relevant feedback to cement their place in a community.
People overcompensate for that lack of identity (communal, social, relevance) by seeking out more validation of individual identity rather than expanded group role.

People simply pay lip service to the idea that they are independent.
People espousing their "independence" are simply attempting to politely say "I'm better than you. I deserve the good stuff."
It's a means of self valuing out of a lack of enough meaningful community feedback or validation.


The more things change the more they stay the same, while a lot of people seem to build their expectations on that something will be different, better, easier.

Your mother also learnt..
That looking after a man was a privilege...lol.. she learned how to honor and obey him..She knew how to let a man be a man...lol...
Women not so much these days..
They want to wear the pants..
But then be considered feminine and sexy... they want to bicker and argue with the man... instead of letting him take the lead.... that no longer View having a man as a privilege.... they no longer think it is their job to look after the home the husband the children...
Because now they compete in a man's world.... so they no longer see themselves as a woman.. but a woman doing a man's job....
Lol....
In no way does PHD endorse the statements above personally....lmao

When you find someone who values you and looks after you and loves you then you have no problems looking after, honoring and obeying. Because they are doing the same for you.

Society has changed. People have been allowed to have bad morals. Immoral things are overlooked. People do as they please become selfish.

Why is it when I read this topic.... the song from the TV show Cheers, begins to play in my head..lol.wink

Well, I've posted about this type of thing a great may times here, but most aren't interested or don't get is ...
It's long, not sure if you're interested, going to read it, but alas...

It has all to do with society having been patriarchal for centuries, thousands of years, and we are now going towards a matriarchal society. No, that does not mean woman are boss, like you men have always been.
We are in de middle of this change-over that will likely take a few generations, it has already been going on for a few generations.

So what's going on at the mo is that ppl are trying to find a new balance in masculine & feminine. And NOT just ppl as individuals, society and cultures as a whole are in a re-calibrating state/phase.

As with many -if not all- major changes (and this is serious BIG chit! Globally, not just western countries), some ppl and/or aspects in society go from one extreme to the next. That is all part of the change-over.
So yes, there are women who now get very effing defensive when they think they are dependent. Thinking it's wrong, dirty, inferior blablabla.
But that's only because they do not yet understand the power of the real, archetypical feminine principle.
Neither do men.
It is very difficult for BOTH sexes as we have been brainwashed and reared in a still mostly patriarchal society/culture.
So woman are trying to find their feet in all this, so are men. Many men are confused, as with stronger educated and independent women, their role has changed too.
Many apparently are feeling kind of lost. Now they get hit on in bars by women, which used to be their part in life. To 'hunt' and 'conquer', to chase after the lady of his desire, now women are 'hunting & conquering'. So many men are like WTF is going on?

And yes this is good, it is serious progress, for the sheer reason that the way things were wasn't right.
I think many women who find their balance, do finally get in touch with their pure feminine 'archetype', will drop all the masculine BS that they now display.
Right now it is still mostly a balancing act, both sexes kind of lost and searches for the Golden Middle.
Most women don't know what it means to be a woman, feminine. They think that being sexy, seductive, slutty maybe even is feminine. It is NOT!!! That is masculine! Sure a 'real' woman can be sexy, but she will be a different kind of sexy. Soft. Not aggressive. Soft on the outside, receptive, open, and strong on the inside.

You study psychology. Read some Jung. There's this really really great book on this, by a Jungian psychologist. A crying shame it's not translated in English. It is worth its weight in gold 100x over! One of a kind. I've been busy with this particular subject for years, never found a better book on it. But it is Jungian psychology, so I spose you should be able to find something in there.

my mother came from a small town with small town values. She married my father and got a job while he attended college and they lived in a little apartment until he graduated and they moved to his first teaching job. They bought a little white ranch house and my brother came along and then I showed up and she was perfectly content taking care of babies, the garden and growing flowers around the yard. My father..not so much and decided to have an affair with his secretary.My mother was faced with the choice of staying with an unfaithful man or taking her two kids and moving away to get her degree.
I was raised by a strong single mother who told me I WOULD go to college and dont ever depend on a man to take care of me. In fact, she was damn angry with me when I got married at 23, had a baby at 24 and stopped going to school to stay home with my kids.

see a lot of men posting that they are just looking for a good woman to take care of them..


and yet many women are looking for an INTERDEPENDENT relationship
two adults with their own interests, careers, needs who are choosing to spend time together

is it the "whatever makes me happy" outlook that is doing this?

Crystal my sista I am gonna put this down because I think what you are saying is worth thinking about

these characteristics, personality traits we slap a his or her name tag on..
traditional gender roles


we hear all the time that each couple should find what works for them
but ..is it working?

Yeah, it is all really interesting! I love reading and thinking about that stuff. Rori Ray (relationship/dating coach) touching on those things too, although of course concerning relationships, but it boils down to the same thing.

THe worst thing that has happened with women as far as I'm concerned, is that we all got so competitive with one another. Each is trying to be prettier, sexier, more appealing, smarter etc etc etc than the other woman.
WHereas the typical feminine archetype is supportive of other woman, never undermining each other, never trying to pull the rug out from underneath another woman's feet.
The fact that most women do do that, I effing hate it!

As for traditional role patterns, I think we will find that we will at least partially go back there, but in a different form. With respect for the woman, not like she's inferior cos she does most of the housework etc.
And let's face it: did we ever really leave it behind us? Nope, we didn't!!
Many women get burnouts, health problems because they now have to juggle all the tasks. Most of the household chores and raising kids still is on woman's shoulders (statistic for this, I'm not making it up).
So now we not only have to be perfect wives, mothers, housekeepers, but on top of that also perfect employees. If you don't have or pursue a career, you get frowned upon.
But thing is, needing status (career, sports car, lots of money etc etc) is again ... masculine. It's part of the competitiveness that is in your picture. Men need that, women don't.
Women need ... sisterhood, which we lost cos we envy each other, try to outdo each other etc etc. The feeling of oneness (also from own family) is what a woman needs.
What makes a woman feel good is contact with other woman. That gives us the either Oxycontin or estrogen (I believe the first) that we need to feel good, happy.
Men need testosteron. So competition, meaning status, trying to get that career, get that posh car in the driveway so everyone sees he's achieved it. And that wonderful wife and know that he was the only one who could get her (heart, I mean, not sex). Because that's the same thing -think about it! Apparently what gets you the guy, for keepers, if he feels that he is the only one who could get you. Matthew Hussey's got great stuff on that. Saying men need to think about the girl, and what happened (yes, including sex) and think "I did that! I, and no one else could've done that!!"
That's why if you sleep with him too soon ... you lose him. Cos he will feel anyone could've done that, not just him.
All boils down to the same thing: competitiveness, status ("I did that!!!")

So women being forced by society to pursue a career goes against our true grain, meaning it'll wear us out and/or force us to become more and more masculine energy women ...
But I do not believe it will remain that way ... Too many ppl are suffering under this basically unhealthy imbalance.

look's up.. stops what he was doing.. puts down the kleenex box..
Well that was working until this topic made me think... about what I really want..in a partner....lol
And there's nothing wrong with a little healthy competition between women.....lol.... just keep trying to one-up each other... bigger breast firmer bum..... sexy lingerie....
If I was a woman I would not let another woman outdo me..js..wink

No (right now you think) you wouldn't cos you think like a man, duh!
Oh hang on, that had to be this one

I remember many months ago posting a thread asking what men were bringing to the table outside the functions of sex and bread-winning.

From my recollection , the men were struggling to identify or articulate what their contributions were . It was almost as if once , I took the functions of sex and bread-winning off the table, which were previously labelled as predominantly male roles , that the men were kinda lost and unsure about their place, identity, and value in a relationship, and in the family.

It made me ponder if maybe women are so busy celebrating their triumphs and growth , that we forgot to make it clear to the men that we still NEED them in our lives, as sounding boards, advisers, paternal role models and disciplinarians for our kids, lovers, partners and WORTHY COMPANIONS. And men in some cases fail to realise that these areas are where we need them the most, and require MOST OF THEIR EFFORTS.

And yes . Too many women are resistant to admitting dependence on men because they associate it with the oppression of a previous era that they fought so hard AGAINST.


But on the the flip side, could it also be that men started feeling that because women are getting such validation from the boardroom to the baby room , that we no longer want or need THEIR validation , moral support and assistance?

Yes it appears that the sexes are competing way too much with each other in the home these days, but I also think that both genders are equally guilty of taking each other's value for granted.

Oh.. and one more thing . In terms of the power struggle for which gender is leading the home, I suspect a lot of that would be diffused if BOTH genders , regardless of who has the bigger salary, made it a point to REALLY LISTEN to each other's opinion on issues and factor BOTH party's perspectives and desires into ALL decision making.

Even if the final decision is up to my mate, I personally would feel very empowered if my PARTNER at least listened to my feelings about an issue and acknowledged the validity of my ideas and ideals.

could be that independent women..especially American women
tend to bite a man's head off for mentioning that he might want or need anything from a woman..

to feel appreciated
validated that he is doing a good job
to feel like he has someone standing next to him
who notices the things he is trying to do
someone warm and welcoming to come home to
after fighting the lions all day long

seems like with both out there fighting lions all day long
men and women are competing in the work world

and competing in the relationship

both of saying they had a hard day, had to deal with pissy coworkers, an overbearing boss, deadlines

both of them saying " hey show me some appreciation!!"

I think lack of appreciation is an ongoing theme between the genders , even when the woman is not working. . If anything, a homemaker may feel even less valued in home because she is not contributing financially.

At some point both parties will have to understand that once they agree to enter a relationship, that they are on the same team.

We're just wired differently, there isn't anything wrong really in my opinion... worlds a busier place, lots of information and stuff to process.

just as a sidenote, I'm not too crazy about hearing a story for the third time while listening to her tell her mom, sister and friend on the phone... gawd help me if I'm next, id rather jump out the window to escape... 3 or 4 different sources of "validation" still not good enough, you'd think the "committee" had it all covered but nope

EDIT*

My appreciation is shown in little ways like waking early to start her car on a cold snowy morning, sometimes it's sneaking behind her, grab her bum and kiss her neck, we show appreciation differently men & women. people should enjoy each other and do the things their partners like, that's it that's all IMO