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WRONG< there is a difference between teaching about homosexuality,, and teaching homosexuality is normal thats the difference I am talking about,,, homosexuality has no reason to be taught to my children, the schools can cover ANAL SEX, or CUNNILINGUS strictly from the anatomical perspective,, there is no reason to go promoting sexual 'preferences' IF hte interest were really in teaching about homosexuality, why wouldnt that include all the EXPONENTIAL Risks that the behavior is associated with? the interest is in teaching the EMBRACING of homosexuality as equal to heterosexuality,,, which is BS I dont want taught to my child from people she is being taught to respect as educators,,,, All I am reading here is you want YOUR agenda, YOUR morals, YOUR beliefs fostered onto the kids. You don't care about them being able to think for themselves, you'd rather do it for them. You cannot separate what you are suggesting from the idea that you want to teach them to judge homosexuals/lesbians as less than acceptable people based solely on whom they choose to share their lives with. You just cannot do it, it goes together. The fact is, kids are GOING to be exposed to these differences as they grow up, and it's something they need to know about and understand so they can handle it. Yes risks should be taught just as much as risks should be taught for straight sex, but to outright instill them that these people are different or less worthy of respect in any way is crossing the line. They may not be able to have kids like straight people can, but there is not one damn thing wrong with being with one another, I don't care what the Bible says about it, it is not relevant for discussion as it pertains to human rights and individuality. It needs to be kept out of discussions like this. Give the child all the information totally unbiased and let them decide from there, is that that hard?? Do you give your children unbiased information? Along with all else Have you told YOUR children that God is possibly their Creator and that the Bible may possibly be His Message to all men. That salvation may be needed for a sin-sick world? And that Jesus may be the Savior of mankind? Along with other information...unbiasedly of course. "and let them decide from there, is that that hard??" To me a child should be introduced to such ideas ONLY when they are capable of understanding them. If I ever have kids, I will not brainwash them into religion otherwise. If they wish to go down that path later then fine, but I will not push one or another onto them. They should make their own choices. |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
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The Bible I read shows me God is a loving God. Don't know what all the boohooey is about.  Read Joshua. Slaughter without mercy.... men women and children. In the name of God. Yep, that sounds real loving ...   Ive read Joshua! God is Good!! Joshua leads a successful military campaign to clear idol-worshipping people from the land. Joshua shows over and over how God blesses His people. The Promised Land was His gift to them, as were the military victories that he engineered. Joshua said: "Choose you this day whom ye will serve..as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15) So what about in 2 Kings where god sent she bears to kill 42 kids for making fun of a mans bald head? That's justifiable cause god did it.Wow can someone say delusional  Amen to that......by this logic any war is good if it's waged by God.....seems a lot like how we justify war now doesn't it? If we do it it's good, to hell with the people that die in its' wake. Funny huh? |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
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The Bible I read shows me God is a loving God. Don't know what all the boohooey is about. Read Joshua. Slaughter without mercy.... men women and children. In the name of God. Yep, that sounds real loving ... Yep, people who read the Bible and only see a loving God are purposefully ignoring the COUNTLESS passages that show the opposite. And yet we're told we pick and choose....... |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
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except for the fact that he knowingly does this and then yet expects ONE way of living above all others despite stacking the deck against that, and punishing in a way no human ever would.......in a way where you CANNOT learn anything because you are left dead eternally. Not a God I choose to worship who will act in that type of way. No, God doesn't expect ONE way of living above all others, nor has he stacked anything against us. God has told us to live a loving life, that's it. All the different rules/laws or whatever circle around being a loving person, heck we'll even be judged on how we treat others. You just disproved your own argument, if we are FORCED to do one thing over another by penalty of eternal death if we do not comply, that very much IS expecting one way of living above any others. There's no way around it. Sorry Kleisto, but you still don't seem to be getting what I'm saying. What you do from when you were born can not earn you eternal death. That is why the scriptures constantly speak of the "reward" of eternal life. It is earned through faith and action. Faith comes from your heart, it is what you truly put your heart in. And the actions show this faith and or the lack there of the faith. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Bullcrap, if you HAVE to act one way or another to survive, you have no true choice. It is still forced or at least attempted force. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Thu 06/13/13 03:46 PM
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More on homosexuals?  "Many, if not most, of the students here today know this, and most of them don’t really care." True, so why does he need to say this? Ok, so he's a sexual deviant big deal. How about the majority of the students who aren't and didn't feel the need speak of their sexuality? Who needs to know? Why do you have a problem with him stating he's gay? I don't have a "problem" with it. What about the majority of students that didn't feel the need to speak of their sexuality? Is he special? Just as the kid who prayed during his speech, this kid earned his chance at being Salutatorian. If he wants to talk about who he is and what got him to where he is, I say go for it. If the kid wants to pray because he feels that's who he is and it's important enough to do in front of a group of people, fine. That's ok. But don't you think that it takes a little something out of the special event for the rest of the students? Graduations are not just about one student. gays don't care about that part, as long as their happy, thats all that matters... You could say that about the kid praying, too. It works both ways. I'm sorry, i didn't know praying was "morally unacceptable"... Some may not have liked that he did it though......but if he can, this kid had the same right. What's good for the goose....... Freedom isn't freedom if it only exists when it suits you. |
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I just don't see what's so brave about praying. for me, its brave to take a risk for no personal gain in a country , culture, that is more and more villifying religion, trying to subliminally ban it on any public level,,,,its risky to go against the pc grain and stand up to the potential public scrutiny over ones choices (sound familiar?) Religion and praying are definitely personal, though. And by praying in public in front of large groups of people, you're doing so because you choose to do so. It's all about personal choice. so is sex and romance,, in the opinion of many but that doesnt mean that those feelings or expression should have to be exclusively in private,,,, and a culture that encourages the choice for some, should encourage it for all,,,, yes, every action is about personal choice,,, Difference though is......those things are exclusive to the people expressing those emotions/doing those things, religion and praying are not so much in this setting. it isnt exclusive, two people may engage in an action with each other, but in the public setting I have to have my EYES subject to it, ,unless I leave or cover them similarly, if one person ENGAGES in an action with their mouth, in a public setting, others only have to have their EARS subject to it, unless they leave or cover them there is no difference, participation is voluntary,, however you spin it,,, Not at an event like this it isn't......and yes there is a difference, one is personal to the people involved, the other is made effectively public. |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
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God gave no "command" to love. You can not command anyone to love or really command anyone to do anything. God tells us, informs us of what he wishes. It is our choice to obey or not. Therefore if one does remain dead eternally, it is there own fault, not God's. Choices my friend, choices. Even though God has the final say in who lives or dies.......it's like saying that a murderer who demands something or he shoots isn't responsible because the victim had a choice to obey and chose not to. That wouldn't work and neither does this. |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
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except for the fact that he knowingly does this and then yet expects ONE way of living above all others despite stacking the deck against that, and punishing in a way no human ever would.......in a way where you CANNOT learn anything because you are left dead eternally. Not a God I choose to worship who will act in that type of way. No, God doesn't expect ONE way of living above all others, nor has he stacked anything against us. God has told us to live a loving life, that's it. All the different rules/laws or whatever circle around being a loving person, heck we'll even be judged on how we treat others. You just disproved your own argument, if we are FORCED to do one thing over another by penalty of eternal death if we do not comply, that very much IS expecting one way of living above any others. There's no way around it. |
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I just don't see what's so brave about praying. for me, its brave to take a risk for no personal gain in a country , culture, that is more and more villifying religion, trying to subliminally ban it on any public level,,,,its risky to go against the pc grain and stand up to the potential public scrutiny over ones choices (sound familiar?) Religion and praying are definitely personal, though. And by praying in public in front of large groups of people, you're doing so because you choose to do so. It's all about personal choice. so is sex and romance,, in the opinion of many but that doesnt mean that those feelings or expression should have to be exclusively in private,,,, and a culture that encourages the choice for some, should encourage it for all,,,, yes, every action is about personal choice,,, Difference though is......those things are exclusive to the people expressing those emotions/doing those things, religion and praying are not so much in this setting. |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
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"the difficulty is in defining what would be 'proof' to an atheist outside of God hiself speaking to them which they may still dismiss as a result of something else,,,, " Actually I'm fairly sure if "god" was all the religious people believe him to be, that god talking to me directly wouldn't simply occur to me as "a result of something else" it would be an extremely spiritual experience that no one in their right mind could deny. Sad to say, it's completely impossible to prove the non-existence of something like "god" because what the entire existence of "god" boils down to is a thought in people's minds. It is comparable to love because it is nothing more than a thought or way of thinking. So the only way that I could possibly prove to you that he does not exist is to alter the way you think and clearly that will never happen as you refuse to listen to logic and truth. So I can define perfectly what would be proof to you, but the definition is of non-existence as you have a mind that refuses to bend to see that truth. But I've been saying it since I was a kid, if the all powerful god wants to prove himself to me, DO IT ALREADY. Oh also I've noticed that you seem to base your belief in "him" on all the beauty and structure and whatever that you see in this world, but what of all the chaos and destruction, the heinous acts and horrible deeds. It seems you hold a very convenient double standard, if something good happens it's god, if something bad happens it's our fault. to quote a beloved family member "I cant reveal God to you, I can only share how He reveals himself to me' Im quite logical and open to truth, no amount of condesention masked as self proclaimed superiority proves otherwise,,, belief in or against God has no LOGIC behind it except the logic drawn drawn for all of us on our UNIQUE life experience,,, and I Also notice that similarly, non believers tend to blame God for all the atrocity and not have much gratitude towards him for all the blessings and beauty,,, Actually I hold no double standard, I know that when it comes right down to it, all the good and the bad that happens to us is our doing alone. The topic of this thread is to simply point out the conflict in the way religious people think. God did all of the good things in life, man did all of the bad. Much too convenient of a double standard. If god did all of the good things then you must also hold him accountable for the bad things. But from the same branch of reasoning, if god has no control over us and we do all of the good and the bad, then your entire supposed reason for believing in his existence goes out the window because all of the beauty and structure you see in this world is the work of man, not god and science can explain the rest. And if you really think I'm being so condescending, then think about what you would think of me if I told you a pink flesh-eating bunny rabbit lives in my closet and whispers secrets to me in my sleep. I read it in a book, I feel that it's true and therefore it must be! Perhaps you'd just brush it off and say "well, that's his belief, who am I to judge?" well, what if I built a whole religion around it and started preaching it to you in person "have you heard of the pink flesh eating bunny rabbit, let me tell you about it, he talks to me!" and what if the pope of my new religion started coming to your bible studies and policing what you can or can't do(just like the actual pope interferes with medical science). Ya getting irritated yet? Well that's how I feel about religion. if dozens of books were written about your bunny rabbit, and billions of people over thousands of years reinforced that same entitys existence I probably would consider it,, just on one persons word and one book though,, probably not and as far as God having control, that is a different issue, I can lay out flour, sugar, milk, and eggs in front of you,, but if you bake a wonderful cake or burn it,, is YOUR control I may CHOOSE to intervene to assist you at some point or I may sit back and let you learn on your own none of those things are inconsistent God creates life, and nature, and then leaves the rest to us to proceeed with,,, there is nothing illogical in that,,, He allows the circumstances which create both the good and evil that we experience, but the details are up to us as is the result,,, except for the fact that he knowingly does this and then yet expects ONE way of living above all others despite stacking the deck against that, and punishing in a way no human ever would.......in a way where you CANNOT learn anything because you are left dead eternally. Not a God I choose to worship who will act in that type of way. more of the if its not what makes me happy it cant be loving..... mentality he hasnt stacked the deck,, WE have,,,,it only is difficult now because we have caved in so much against it for so long what should have been simple is now difficult for us because of all the EXTRA stuff we have come to expect to receive instead of expecting to give,,,,, I'm sorry, love doesn't make demands to love, it just gives it. Your God makes demands in order to love, therefore it fails the love the test, that's how I see it. |
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just for the sake of it, what if you found out you were wrong? what if you found out that your son was very hurt by your rejection of such an important part of his life and didn't tell you? what would you do? Id continue to reinforce that I love him by all the other actions that love consists of Id continue to reinforce that I value him as a person and I REFUSE to define him or his value by his sexual lifestyle and Id continue to reinforce that as his mom, its my job to want what is healthy for him, even when he may have a preference for something else,,, that it is BECAUSE I love him that I care enough not to cave in and pretend its ok or healthy ,, BECAUSE Im his mom Im gonna be HONEST with him when I think his decisions are not healthy but he already knows this, it is strongly enforced in my family that love is not about saying I dont care if,,,,,,,,as long as you're "happy" parents who do that just to make kids happy, generally can put a period after the CARE. I do care, thats why I want him to be healthy which his lifestyle is not,,,,he understands that,,,,even if he doesnt agree or would rather me accept it,, he understands the reason for the disapproval is LOVE,,,just like my reason for everything else in his life since he was born,,,,, HE is quite SMART that way,,,,, If you say so........I still am betting there's more he doesn't say but that's just a guess........ and regardless of good intentions love in such a way can still be misguided love and harm. the idea that to be loved means people must approve of whatever makes you happy is misguided,,, I disagree......if they are happy with their life and not harming themselves in a clear way (your opinions doesn't mean it's harm), it should not be an issue. Their happiness should mean more than your personal morals do, and I find it sad that you choose that instead. |
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Topic:
God is NOT a loving god.
Edited by
Kleisto
on
Mon 06/10/13 07:42 PM
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"the difficulty is in defining what would be 'proof' to an atheist outside of God hiself speaking to them which they may still dismiss as a result of something else,,,, " Actually I'm fairly sure if "god" was all the religious people believe him to be, that god talking to me directly wouldn't simply occur to me as "a result of something else" it would be an extremely spiritual experience that no one in their right mind could deny. Sad to say, it's completely impossible to prove the non-existence of something like "god" because what the entire existence of "god" boils down to is a thought in people's minds. It is comparable to love because it is nothing more than a thought or way of thinking. So the only way that I could possibly prove to you that he does not exist is to alter the way you think and clearly that will never happen as you refuse to listen to logic and truth. So I can define perfectly what would be proof to you, but the definition is of non-existence as you have a mind that refuses to bend to see that truth. But I've been saying it since I was a kid, if the all powerful god wants to prove himself to me, DO IT ALREADY. Oh also I've noticed that you seem to base your belief in "him" on all the beauty and structure and whatever that you see in this world, but what of all the chaos and destruction, the heinous acts and horrible deeds. It seems you hold a very convenient double standard, if something good happens it's god, if something bad happens it's our fault. to quote a beloved family member "I cant reveal God to you, I can only share how He reveals himself to me' Im quite logical and open to truth, no amount of condesention masked as self proclaimed superiority proves otherwise,,, belief in or against God has no LOGIC behind it except the logic drawn drawn for all of us on our UNIQUE life experience,,, and I Also notice that similarly, non believers tend to blame God for all the atrocity and not have much gratitude towards him for all the blessings and beauty,,, Actually I hold no double standard, I know that when it comes right down to it, all the good and the bad that happens to us is our doing alone. The topic of this thread is to simply point out the conflict in the way religious people think. God did all of the good things in life, man did all of the bad. Much too convenient of a double standard. If god did all of the good things then you must also hold him accountable for the bad things. But from the same branch of reasoning, if god has no control over us and we do all of the good and the bad, then your entire supposed reason for believing in his existence goes out the window because all of the beauty and structure you see in this world is the work of man, not god and science can explain the rest. And if you really think I'm being so condescending, then think about what you would think of me if I told you a pink flesh-eating bunny rabbit lives in my closet and whispers secrets to me in my sleep. I read it in a book, I feel that it's true and therefore it must be! Perhaps you'd just brush it off and say "well, that's his belief, who am I to judge?" well, what if I built a whole religion around it and started preaching it to you in person "have you heard of the pink flesh eating bunny rabbit, let me tell you about it, he talks to me!" and what if the pope of my new religion started coming to your bible studies and policing what you can or can't do(just like the actual pope interferes with medical science). Ya getting irritated yet? Well that's how I feel about religion. if dozens of books were written about your bunny rabbit, and billions of people over thousands of years reinforced that same entitys existence I probably would consider it,, just on one persons word and one book though,, probably not and as far as God having control, that is a different issue, I can lay out flour, sugar, milk, and eggs in front of you,, but if you bake a wonderful cake or burn it,, is YOUR control I may CHOOSE to intervene to assist you at some point or I may sit back and let you learn on your own none of those things are inconsistent God creates life, and nature, and then leaves the rest to us to proceeed with,,, there is nothing illogical in that,,, He allows the circumstances which create both the good and evil that we experience, but the details are up to us as is the result,,, except for the fact that he knowingly does this and then yet expects ONE way of living above all others despite stacking the deck against that, and punishing in a way no human ever would.......in a way where you CANNOT learn anything because you are left dead eternally. Not a God I choose to worship who will act in that type of way. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Mon 06/10/13 01:11 PM
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just for the sake of it, what if you found out you were wrong? what if you found out that your son was very hurt by your rejection of such an important part of his life and didn't tell you? what would you do? Id continue to reinforce that I love him by all the other actions that love consists of Id continue to reinforce that I value him as a person and I REFUSE to define him or his value by his sexual lifestyle and Id continue to reinforce that as his mom, its my job to want what is healthy for him, even when he may have a preference for something else,,, that it is BECAUSE I love him that I care enough not to cave in and pretend its ok or healthy ,, BECAUSE Im his mom Im gonna be HONEST with him when I think his decisions are not healthy but he already knows this, it is strongly enforced in my family that love is not about saying I dont care if,,,,,,,,as long as you're "happy" parents who do that just to make kids happy, generally can put a period after the CARE. I do care, thats why I want him to be healthy which his lifestyle is not,,,,he understands that,,,,even if he doesnt agree or would rather me accept it,, he understands the reason for the disapproval is LOVE,,,just like my reason for everything else in his life since he was born,,,,, HE is quite SMART that way,,,,, If you say so........I still am betting there's more he doesn't say but that's just a guess........ and regardless of good intentions love in such a way can still be misguided love and harm. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Mon 06/10/13 01:08 PM
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EDIT: nevermind singmesweet made my point.
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just for the sake of it, what if you found out you were wrong? what if you found out that your son was very hurt by your rejection of such an important part of his life and didn't tell you? what would you do?
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 06/09/13 11:13 PM
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how many times a day does your mom and dad hug you? how many times are the words 'I love you' uttered? How many times DAILY do you share laughs? How much time DAILY do you spend talking communicating or planning with each other? How often have you needed something (a true NEED, not a desire) and they came through and vice versa? How often have you wanted something badly that you struggled with and they came through for you and vice versa? How many times when you were down and out did they pull you up? yeah,, all THAT is what LOVE is about,, To a degree yes, but remember there is more than one form of love, there are other forms of love that matter just as much such as the validation of your life and where you're going with it by those closest to you. Those things you speak of are important, but it doesn't mean other parts are less so. In fact for some, they may need the other types more depending on the person, it's not a one size fits all type of deal to me. Some can be fine with just what you speak of, but others may need more. I can't speak for your son but for me said validation is as important to me as saying or physically showing you love me, to have it rejected doesn't make me feel very good. Your son may be different I don't know, but I kind of doubt it from what you've said and how much his lifestyle is a part of who he is. You may think the love you give is all he needs but it may not be the case. |
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he feels just as disappointed IM sure, as I do but that has little to do with whether we love each other he thinks I should be happy if he is happy, I have a different idea of what being a parent is primarily, thinking Im gonna encourage healthy behavior and not encourage unhealthy behavior,,, ,,,my parents HAVE rejected people I Was with,, and with good reason,, having the communication we have I related to and understood everyone of their objections I understood it came from love and protection I continued with my choice, and they didnt disrespect me or the other person nor did they pretend to be happy about it they dealt with us as INDIVIDUALS ,, how about that? not as a GAY COUPlE, or a STRAIGHT COUPLE,, that element they stayed out of COMPLETELY And we didnt force it on them or flaunt it in front of them out of respect,,, I'm sorry I have a little different definition of love than you do, I don't think this is really love, it's more love with some conditions to me. Love to me means you put their happiness over your own, and desire the best for them even if they have a different definition of it than you might. I don't think you truly do that because even though you don't push your belief on him now, you have made it clear you reject his lifestyle which is a part of who he is. I don't see that as loving, I'm sorry but I don't. And to me.....I would feel disrespected if my parents rejected a lover of mine strictly on a basis like this, because it say to me they care again more about their morality and superiority than about what I need, and I think your son feels the same way. sorry if you have such a shallow relationship with your parents my relationship with my children started WELL before they made sexual choices and our bond is based in love not some utopian idea of everything that feels good to you is ok by me,,,, TRUST , that in my family, family is family and truth is truth and love shall never require turning from the truth,,, my son and my daughter are FIRST AND FOREMOST my son and my daughter and thats where our love starts ALWAYS,, whatever else is happening in our lives,,, they understand that completely,,, ,, you have no clue what my son feels,, from what I Have read, your family life has nothing in common with mine or my children actually in some ways I think it does......because I could see myself being treated the same way for how I think now as I was/have been by my own family. Part of why I am reacting so strongly against it, cause I lived it/am living it. |
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Okay now take that one situation and times it by thousands of incidents where you are at a public event and someone gets up and rails on Gay rights or that there is no God and see how you feel. Atheists have been hearing people carry on about God for years and years and just having their ears raped over and over and putting up with it. They have had enough. It is time to keep your religious beliefs personal and private and stop trying to "spread the word" in public gatherings to people who don't want to hear it. not gonna happen, gonna keep on having the right to be 'who we are' just like everyone else has,,,  You only have that right beyond where someone elses' starts, if you preach to someone else who clearly doesn't want to be preached at about what to believe (not the same as what gays do btw before you even try that), your rights end there. There are boundaries. If YOU ARE AT A PUBLIC EVENT,, be prepared to hear the SPEAKERS views be an adult, deal with it, grow up,,,,, if you dont want to hear it,, leave if there is any other reason you are there, deal with it and be grateful for whatever it is you came to celebrate,,, it depends what the public event is for though......if it's designated for a certain believer or group of believers fine, anyone who doesn't want to hear about that or has no interest in it has the option to opt out, but at an event that is not designated as such I think it crosses the line because there is no such choice involved. |
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he feels just as disappointed IM sure, as I do but that has little to do with whether we love each other he thinks I should be happy if he is happy, I have a different idea of what being a parent is primarily, thinking Im gonna encourage healthy behavior and not encourage unhealthy behavior,,, ,,,my parents HAVE rejected people I Was with,, and with good reason,, having the communication we have I related to and understood everyone of their objections I understood it came from love and protection I continued with my choice, and they didnt disrespect me or the other person nor did they pretend to be happy about it they dealt with us as INDIVIDUALS ,, how about that? not as a GAY COUPlE, or a STRAIGHT COUPLE,, that element they stayed out of COMPLETELY And we didnt force it on them or flaunt it in front of them out of respect,,, I'm sorry I have a little different definition of love than you do, I don't think this is really love, it's more love with some conditions to me. Love to me means you put their happiness over your own, and desire the best for them even if they have a different definition of it than you might. I don't think you truly do that because even though you don't push your belief on him now, you have made it clear you reject his lifestyle which is a part of who he is. I don't see that as loving, I'm sorry but I don't. And to me.....I would feel disrespected if my parents rejected a lover of mine strictly on a basis like this, because it say to me they care again more about their morality and superiority than about what I need, and I think your son feels the same way. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Sun 06/09/13 08:09 PM
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Okay now take that one situation and times it by thousands of incidents where you are at a public event and someone gets up and rails on Gay rights or that there is no God and see how you feel. Atheists have been hearing people carry on about God for years and years and just having their ears raped over and over and putting up with it. They have had enough. It is time to keep your religious beliefs personal and private and stop trying to "spread the word" in public gatherings to people who don't want to hear it. not gonna happen, gonna keep on having the right to be 'who we are' just like everyone else has,,, You only have that right beyond where someone elses' starts, if you preach to someone else who clearly doesn't want to be preached at about what to believe (not the same as what gays do btw before you even try that), your rights end there. There are boundaries. |
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