well said James, ...I SO COMMEND you for having the patience i cannot
find within myself at the present time , to address these people
appropriately.

maybe it is because i have just come from Darfur and Sudan and Chad, and
have seen the harsh reality of inequity....

it is just not easy at all for me to even sit in my house or behind the
computer , to flush a toilet or run a bath...i have a horrible lack of
sympathy for the mundane trivialities of urban suffering at the
moment....i am somewhere on a sharp edge and wounded ...it's best i
refrain from comment when i am so sharp...


but i really want to thank you for your patience and grace in these
matters where i am so horribly lacking


alex

doesnt have much to do with this topic.. but atheist or not.. alex here
has more love in her heart for others and herself than most people i've
ever met

this is a lesson plan for teachers teaching 6th graders and below

For guess the covered word you MUST have a sentence that has a LOT of
words that would work - this is NOT a place where you teach context
clues unless you are working with 5th-6th graders - then follow the
directions for using a paragraph instead of individual sentences.

Make 4 or 5 sentences that read like this:

Mary's favorite food is ....

Tom's favorite game is ...

Sue likes to go to the ...

YOU pre-select the covered word and put 2 or 3 (depending on how long
you want each part to last and whether you are working first sound only
or first sound AND vowel sound) sticky notes over the parts of the word
- one over first sound, one over the first vowel (or vowel digraph) and
one over the ending of the word ... OR one over the first sound and one
over the rest of the word.
that being said i do not think a child wrote that but an adult who
thought it would make his argument more valid if those who read it
thought it came from a child.when did the child write it?beetween recess
and finger painting?

PW - Your point is exactly what I was getting at originally when I was
under the impression that this was written by a child of that age. The
Fact that adults were sympathyzing was unconscionable to me.

In the end no matter who wrote it, to say that we are misrepresenting
the persons fellings, is BS. If this person wanted to say they felt
slighted because they could not say the Pledge or a prayer, then that
would have been sufficient. However, this person chose their words
carefully, with irony, with indignance, with a bigotry that extended to
others persnal rights, and with no exception this can only be seen as
judgement against those who have rights that are not acceptible to this
person.

To say we have misjudged thier intention is like changing your mind that
the Bible is or isn't infallible, that the word of God is or isn't
parable, that Jesus may or may not have been God, but you believe in
what you want to and that's ok. Then why a book to reference at all??
What purpose does all the prose in it serve, if it is there for the sole
purpose of your interpretion? What purpose, what falicy requires a
hirarchy that is financially supported by a community of 'like minded'
folks, just so they can attend a place to worship whatever each of them
in their own faith wish to believe?

The part of all this that is unworthy of any logical clear thinking
individual is that you think there is something so valuable here, that
others should not only learn and conform, but that it is required to be
included in our civil code, our laws.

there is an element of truth in all religion and the books they go by
.the anomie that the bible contains leaves me cold.we are told we are
wicked so we do as we are told.butt thats ok all is forgiven so we can
be wicked again and again and again and
again.............................................jesus died for our
sins ya no.so if ya just got ya faith youll be in the next show so all
good christians can crow.i am seeking unenlightenment. the religion that
i was taught in school was the whlole truth and nothin butt the truth. i
was lied to.im agnostic and i dunno watts goin on . im just
gunner box on reguardless. watt ever makes ya happy i reckon go for
it.

There has been much discussion here that sheds light on all the
different points of view. How many of the Christians here can pick one
persons views and say, without addition or subtraction and with
reference to Biblical teaching I totally agree with "this" person. Not
one of you has accomplished this. With this, there is even someone who
questions the ability of someone to love if they do not believe in God -
obviously a reference to the Christian God. Which shows it's own
bigotry as no one in this world not even the Christians can carry or
spout the same record of beliefs.

And even so, there are those who think that putting such an unorganized
theory such as religion as a daily part of school regiment. So say the
Pledge every day, just take out the words, under God. For those who
have stated that the Pledge is ok with these words, because you have
developed a way and a sence of illusion where these words are concerned,
let mey remind that these word mean only one simple thing to a child
under the age of, well could be up to the age of 18 or more, depending
of how well the education system works for any particular kid.

Abra, it sounds to me that you may be one of the type of teachers I
highly respected while going through the Los Angeles Public school
system, there were very few. I commend you are your patience and the way
you think about teaching. I was one of those who bored easily yet didn't
have the drive to sustain a more liberal system. I hope that one day if
you have the opportunity to teach your children, you will be able to
prove me wrong in the Ideas I have come to believe. I am sure that some
people are able to teach home-schooling, however due to my experiences I
have yet to see them.

As for the rest of those who feel this thread is about religion it is
not. It is about freedom of speech, and the way or constitution has been
used to remove certain thing from our lifestyle that only a chosen few
are against. If you don't believe me ask TG, I did and as a result I
have tried to keep to the topic at hand in regards to what should or
shouldn't be taught.

As for God is Love? Even I can love and to be honest with you all the
years I was not close to whom I call God I still had an idea of what
love is, and it is not necessary to believe in God to know Love. Seems
Dogma has struck again, It has a way of doing that to those who believe
everything they are taught or read about.

In early times of this world did man even have a concept of God? I am
sure he/she Loved thier mate and I am also sure God was around to seal a
marriage of that wasn't on paper.

Just food for thought, Have a nice day and I'm off to that 4 letter word
again W OR K, I didn't want the sensors to delete the word. LOL



G

Home schooling. There was a trend, here in the midwest, of Christians
homeschooling their children. I knew many of the families here and in
two other states that did it. They chose this route for only one
reason, they did not want their children exposed to the theory of
eveolution.

Yes they were made fun of. Want to know why? All of these kids, the
ones I knew and all the ones they knew had one other extra-curricular
field to play in - the church. So Gryph in this perspective, you are
absolutely correct in thinking that home schooling is a way to control
and minipulate.

YES, emphatically, these kids were made fun of, ostracized from the
others at play. My son, the son of an athiest was the only one, to
offer a hand of friendship. The often discussed what was most prevalent
on those kid minds - religion as it relates to society. This began when
the group of kids were between the ages of 9 and 13. My son was
interested and we had many logical discussions in which I encouraged my
son to read and research for himself and I was always there to help him
find the section in the library and how to search on-lne.

There was a time my son tried to introduce these other kids to his
friends, they could not get along. The Christian values and the
extremetly tight hold the parents had over these childrens behavior
prohibited their involvement with the other kids. Some parents, after
finding out that their children were discussing religion with my son,
who never when to church, disallowed thier children to spend time with
my son. My son asked them questions, you see, that they could not
answer.

In the last 10 years I have seen a new influx of home schooled children,
many of my friends are doing. Not because of religion, mostly because
of bad education. Their kids are involved in so many outside
activities. Not one of them has an issue dealing with other children in
the neighborhood.

Now Gryph, what exactly are YOUR experinces in this realm?

Red wrote:
“Home schooling. There was a trend, here in the midwest, of Christians
homeschooling their children. I knew many of the families here and in
two other states that did it. They chose this route for only one
reason, they did not want their children exposed to the theory of
evolution.”

That is indeed sad. That’s totally the wrong reason to want to
homeschool children.

People’s fear of knowledge in this day and age is utterly shocking! In
fact, anyone who’s afraid to learn the theory of evolution has no
business teaching anyone anything. They’re obviously scared to death of
becoming educated. How can people who are afraid to learn things teach
anyone anything?

My reasons for wanting to homeschool children have nothing at all to do
with religion. I just sincerely believe that I could give them a much
better education, and quicker too! If they were my kids and I started
them from scratch I’d have them ready for college probably by the time
they would normally be in the sixth grade. Not only that but they would
be very well-prepared for college too! It just doesn’t take 12 years to
get to that level. High school is extremely inefficient.

I don’t think of it so much as ‘homeschooling’. I think of it more as
‘one-on-one’ schooling. I’m basically a professional teacher, so from
that point of view my kids would have a professional teacher. Not like
unprepared adults trying to muddle through lessons just because they
have a fear of learning evolution. That’s sick!

Talk about the blind leading the blind. It’s no wonder those parents
failed miserably!

People who homeschool for the wrong reasons like that are bound to fail.

Abra, you are exactly right. I have lost track of the families, my son
now being almost 23. I will say, I felt sorry for them, for their
training by the age of 18, the oldest child I still saw, provided them
the ability to live in only one environment, within the community of
their church group.

The other parents I spoke of, those that chose the home route for other
reasons, have all enrolled their in public high school. The younger
ones may have entered earlier as the means of parents provided for a
move to a better school environment. My last and latest contact with
these have indicated they were extremely successful. Each child, so
far, without exception had to test to get placed, each tested in the
highest percent or exceding that percent for their age. They all
adapted very well.

The problem with the schools teaching the THEORY of evolution is that
they are now teaching it as fact. If it were truly taught as only a
theory, then wouldn't the THEORY of creationism have a place right along
side so both views could be explored? Oh, I forgot, since God may be
mentioned in the theory of creationism, we can't have that discussion so
evolution has to be fact, otherwise the opposition may have to concede
to the possibility of their being a creator.

Hey dazzlin

Ain't it possible that both are right.

the two dovetail quite well.

It is actually mind boggling to think that the creator could anticipate
future events in such a way as to create us to evolve as needed to
adapt the a changing world. A world that was created to change as we
became ready to need that change.

Adventure that makes more sense than anything on here thus far


I do not believe we evolved from some type of animal...that has been
disproved anyway but we do evolve in some sense..if we hadn't i think
the human race would be extinct by now.

The problem with these things is religion and science are not even in
the same leagues together.

People have a hard time wrapping thier minds are the science of it all,
rather than blindly accepting some mythical being created something in
the likeness is of himself...

if this is so, then his likeness is raping children?

you can not have free will, then preach in his likeness..

makes no sense at all.

I want my children to go to school to read and write... become citizens
of the planet. Not mindless sheep.

I WANT them to question. I WANT them to explore ideas, and maybe just
maybe find answers.

All of this leads to persecution of those of us whom refuse to follow...
And, those of us whom hold proof other things exist...

In science the word THEORY doesn’t just mean to ‘guess’.

Laymen use the word theory incorrectly all the time. They think that
any idea they come up with should be called their ‘theory’. But that’s
not what the word means in science.

The theory of evolution is not taught as a ‘fact’. That’s simply not
true. What is taught are all the ‘facts’ that support the theory.
Facts are things like fossils having been found. To deny that fossils
have been found is simply to called thousands of active scientists
liars. It is a ‘fact’ that fossils have been found.

What is also taught is that these fossils have been dated using various
independent methods of dating. The precise methods of those dating
techniques are explained. It's a ‘fact’ that these measurements were
made. It’s up to the student to decide whether or not the actual
measurements are compelling.

It’s a ‘fact’ that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming and
extremely compelling to any rational person who looks at the evidence
with an open mind, and not with a predetermined prejudice to not want to
believe it at all cost.

Those are ‘facts’. If in the light of those ‘facts’ a person is not
convinced that evolution actually occurred they are certainly free to
come to that conclusion. But most rational people who genuinely know
all the facts will be compelled to realize that it actually did occur.

Not only do we know how it occurred, but we are currently playing with
the DNA that made it possible. So people who don’t believe in
evolution are way behind the times. What are they going to do next?
Claim that DNA doesn’t exist?

As far as teaching creationism as a THEORY is concerned, well, it
doesn’t qualify as a ‘scientific theory’ so that’s out. As a scientific
theory it would fall flat on its face and necessarily have to be
rejected as being logically inconsistent and therefore shown to be
incorrect. So as a scientific theory it fails.

Perhaps it could somehow be taught as a ‘philosophical theory’ although,
even then I don’t think it would pass most philosopher's standards for
consistency. I think ultimately there’s really no choice but to keep in
the realm of something that needs to be believed on pure faith because
there’s no logically consistent reason to believe it.

Abra, fine points you have made, I do totally agree with you. It is
apparent that many do, or eveolution would not be taught part of the
public school agendas.

Red, my experiences with Home-schooling is limited to about 5 or 6
different situations. Being that for the most part of my adulthood I
spent it in a small community, I saw how those who were home schooled
were treated differently. On 2 oasions after the parents realized how
well the small schools did with the teaching of students they enrolled
the children in the local schools. Two others decided to keep thier
children in home schooling for religious reasons if I read the signs
correctly. The parents were very narrow minded about how others were
curious as to why they were being Home schooled with such a great school
system in our community.

This community had very active Parents Involved with every aspect of the
childrens teachings. The parents supported the athletics programs, and
for the most part the majority of the community participated in local
funtions. Even though I have no children I was invited to school
funtions, community funtions etc. It was a very Nice community and I
have often considered moving back since the X has left it.

I also saw and experienced the alienation of Children doing Home
schooling in Santa Cruz, Ca. It was sad to meet the parents, Like the 2
in my former community they were closed minded and were not what I would
term qualified to teach anyone let alone children. I have some degree of
teaching skills myself however not what I would term enough to surmount
teaching all the proper ideas necessary to give a child a good
education.

Teaching in itself is an art, and anyone who believes they are teachers
just because they wantto teach thier own children doesn't make them
teachers. I can teach you what I know yet I could never teach you what I
would want you to know without having the type of experience necessary
to make it enjoyable and interesting to keep your attention span.

Lunch is over, now Back to W OR K




G

ok, i have read the post, and the threads that have snowballed from
there, and heres my 2 cents...

first, i have no problem with them taking the ten commandments or prayer
out of schools.. i am a religious person to a point, but i am not the
type to force my relogion on anyone else... and i would not like to have
someone feel uncomfortable for my religous beliefs...
that being said.. the great men who created this nation, who were
treasonous against the people who wer trying to stop this nation from
becoming the great place that we all love enough to call home, put those
words in the pledge of allegience, they put those words in the star
apangled banner, and in the decleration of independance... i feel that
it is our duity as americans to teach these to our children... as they
were createrd in their original state... it is our duity out of respect
for trhe great men and women who created these so we can have the free
and wonderful nation that we live in now.. and if you are so narrow
minded and have so little faith in our children to have the abibity and
free will to choose their own paths or if you feel that they are so much
like sheep that they will just follow the religion that is tought in
schools, then we should not read greek plays, they all mention the greek
gods, and we should not study the culture of the other nations in this
world.. they are mostly all based on religion as well...


i beleve our children have the brain power and ability to choose their
own paths, and that we as americans should respect our fourfathers
enough to teach the united states government in the way that it was
written original.... that is how this nation became the place that i
love enough to call my home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


thats my 2 cents worth..

Gryphen,

I home-schooled two of my children, one was 7 years old, and the other
was 10, going on 11.

I educated them at home, away from the only school for 30 miles, as they
were not being educated.

My son, the 10 year old, had an apparent literacy difficulty, which
escalated to a learning difficulty, and by the time the school had
finished labelling him, he had behavioural difficulties as well. (Can
anyone else see a pattern here.)

My son was at school during a transitional period where, the basic rules
of the english language, were discarded for phonics, with few
guidelines...add to that a classroom of 30 children, and it was easy for
those struggling to grasp the basic concept of the english language, and
be able to read it, to fall through the cracks....

My son, when he was evaluated at the commencement of educating him at
home, had the reading/comprehension level of a 5/6 year old. He couldn't
read, I knew it, and had worked with him at home, volunteered at school,
took courses for children with learning difficulties, I educated myself
so I could educate others.

He returned to mainstream education at age 14, with a reading level
appropriate to the standards set with home-schooling,well above those by
the Department of Education. His mathematics levels were of a 6/7 year
old, (with problematic math), at the commencement of home-schooling,and
he had completed his senior,(final year of high school) math at 13, and
was doing extension work, by the time he returned to mainstream
education.

My daughter did equally as well, and they enjoyed a more rounded
education, they visited nursing homes, worked with the local mechanic,
wood turner,learnt to cook with a retired chef, and so on and so on, I
sourced people with skills they wanted to learn, and as a bonus, were
exposed to a wider part of their community.

May I also add, religion, of any type, was not a motivator for me to
educate my children at home, I have my personal belief system, (which is
not based in Christianity), and they have theirs, one again, seeking
out people who could give my children a wider veiw of religion, from
many different religious bases.

May I also add, I believe parents, are their childrens best teachers, we
do it from the day they are born, and are motivated, and emotionally
connected to give our children the best life education we can...