Jane, my understand (or possible mis-understanding) of your posts was
that children should be permitted to pray in schools, but that the
school itself should not dictate very much in terms of how or what they
pray.

Personally, I think a moment for 'silent' prayer is most appropriate,
which allows even atheist to have a moment for thankfulness,
introspection, or simple meditation.

The Lord’s Prayer’ begins with “Our father which art in heaven"

I mean you’ve already lost me right there. This prayer begins with the
assumption that god is a separate ego detached from our reality and
residing in some other place called heaven.

I don’t want to pray to that external image of a god. And I don’t want
my children to be taught to think of god as an external ego in the sky.

I agree with AB, DJ, and MT.

There’s nothing wrong with allowing personal silent prayer in school. I
have no problem with that. The school can give students a ‘moment of
reverence’ to reflect or pray however they wish. Even atheists could
participate because most atheists revere this life and the universe and
most rational atheists wouldn’t object to a moment of silent reverence.

But public led prayer necessarily must be out. As I point out above,
'The Lord’s Prayer' actually starts off spouting specific beliefs right
in the very first line. And I’m sure it implies other beliefs as well
as it continues on.

So I would have to object to having my children (or me for that matter)
having to participate in ‘The Lord’s Prayer’. It’s just totally alien
to how I believe.

well jane

the tread was started dicussing prayer in school

you would thing that those posting a come back to a thread would keep
that in mind

but to no avail

some may have an agenda of their own

but hey what do i know

WoW! Thanx for sharing tg

Wow, I see so many people fighting over a simple point made in the
original post. It seems to me that those of you who are against prayer
in school are right. It should not be taught by anyone in the public
schools.

I am curious though, how many of those so sternly against it have ever
been in a public school and were FORCED to PRAY? If you consider the
pledge of allegiance a prayer then that is your opinion and by that
right you should not have to say the Pledge of Allegience. In MY Opinion
it is The pledge of allegience and now more it mentions a GOD, yet it is
only a reference to an entity that is a symbol of HONOR, FAITH AND
TRUST. I was raised in a religious environment, yet I was also taught of
HONOR, FAITH, AND TRUST to be a universal MORAL Responsibility, not
something that only the GOD FEARING PEOPLE Should be held accountable
for.

Our Laws are based on MORAL responsibilities that coincide with
religious practices for a reason. Would you teach your children it is OK
to kill another because it is your BELIEF? Seems to me that there are
several fanatical groups out there that do this already, and for the
most part they are extremists of particular sects of ORGANIZED
TERRORISM/RELIGIONS.

I view those who scream loudest about no PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE in school
the same as I do those terrorists. They FEEL that even HEARING the word
GOD mentioned is an invasion of thier rights. I am and always have been
APPAULLED at those who support the banning of the word GOD, the majority
of those who are behind this discrimination are themselves refusing to
admit that something more powerful than they could exist.

If you don't like MY OPINION then Tough cookies, In my opinion you are
not allowing me to practice my beliefs, In the mid 1970's several
teachers in my school were disciplined for allowing some of us to SAY
the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE in school. When I was growing up it was COMMON
PRACTICE to say it at the beginning of school. I don't ever remember
anyone that was FORCED to say it. Several didn't because of their
beliefs, they would not say the word GOD. Nobody ever chastised them or
teased them for it, they were our friends and being that we stuck up for
each other. NOBODY was ever disciplined for not saying the Pledge of
ALLEGIANCE.

You could never make me believe you were ever forced to say it in
school, If you were I would have to believe it was by a MORAL CHOICE not
a RELIGIOUS choice.

I have a simple question for some of you however. Since I spent 12 years
in the public school system and never heard the LORDS prayer, or any
other "PRAYER" ever recited in public schools.

How many of you were forced to say a prayer in a PUBLIC school and how
many of you were NEVER forced to say a prayer in a PUBLIC School?

Funny thing too I was raised religiously went to church most sundays and
NEVER knew the Lords Prayer until I went to AA and NA. Now I know it
well, and I use the Serenity Prayer on a regular basis without even
using the word God.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I Cannot Change, Courage to
change the things I Can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Where in the world would we be if there was no acceptance, Courage, or
Wisdom?

Accept my post as my Opinion, realize I have the Courage to stand up for
what I feel is Right, and the Wisdom to Know you may Never change my
Opinion , however you are welcome to try!!!!




G

Gryphyn,

I agree with you basic sentiment about people getting upset about the
word “God” being used in the pledge of allegiance. I personally see no
problem with that myself. I would even think that atheists could accept
that word in a more abstract sense if they really wanted to. I think a
lot of people who have problem with it know that it was originally
intended and viewed in the sense of a Christian God and that is the core
of their objection.

And seriously, if there really is supposed to be a deportation of church
and state then why should anything that has to do with the government
have the word “God” in it? I mean, I would argue just on logical
grounds alone that a pledge of allegiance to this country should not
contain any mention of any god. Especially if the country is claiming
completely freedom of ‘religious views’ which necessarily must embrace
the atheists. So if it were open to a vote I would vote not to have any
reference to religious beliefs in a government pledge just out of
principle. It doesn’t matter how religious I am on a personal level, I
still believe in a separation of church and state.

However, I disagree with you that the post in the OP is so innocent and
merely refers to the use of the word ‘God’ in the pledge of allegiance.
The post clearly contains references to wanting to pray aloud and
display the Ten Commandants, etc.

So you see, the post in the OP was already becoming fanatical in its own
right.

The word 'deportation' in my last post should have been 'separation'

Sorry about that.

Those who wish to pray/pledge should be allowed and those do not wish to
do so should be allowed to either leave the room, or just not
participate. Or vise versa. As long as my right to pledge is not taken
away, I'll leave the room so as not to "offend" the MINORITY. And my
right to do so shouldn't be taken away.

Simple and fair.

There is no seperation clause in the constitution. The fear back then
was that the government would have a state sponsored church. People
really need to read the constitution if they are going to try and base
arguments on it.

Respect my right to believe in what I choose to believe in just as I do
the same for you. Who's to say my belief is wrong and another's is
right and vice versa?

I don't want or need someone to change my mind or convince me otherwise.
What I have is mine and always will be. What you have is your's and
always will be. Respect that.

OK, back on target. I'll quote from the poem itself, read and learn.


For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
( Irony from a fifth grader in such a manner only indicates that,this,
came from adults this child has been listening to. )

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.

(And what scripture has this fifth grader ever been exposed to reading
aloud in school? And the thought that a fifth grader would be so
worried about ‘Federal law with regard to prayer. Where exactly does
this kind of conversation extend from – clue FAMILY, CHURCH)

The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.

( Do you think this child is so intelligent as to be able to write in
this manner for irony’s’ sake, or do you think this child, an 8-9 year
old truly believes that it’s prayers are considered a serious vice? Or
is this something overheard, taken out of context by the child?)

For praying in a public hall
might offend someone with no faith at all.

(Now this may be a child’s view, as CHILDREN tend to be selfish and
would, could, might actually think in terms that what they want to do
“pray” is prohibited and so with irony that child scoffs at the one who
may not wish to hear it, but gives himself freedom to speak it, and
simply ask others “so just don’t listen”. – Is that childish or is this
also a selfish perspective learned in the home?)


We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
(We now have a child who has made judgments, based of what others wear
and how they look. If the sight of this is so prevalent in this child’s
world, how did it come to be something to scoff at, to be offended by?
Who taught that? )


We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.

(Oh my, could this child actually be judging others based on some
religious dogma????? Oh, but wait, this is a fifth grader – how is this
child so aware of what’s happening in the senior class? Oh, maybe it
was dinner discussion, but somehow it came across as bigotry, but how
would the child know what bigotry is or that it's even wrong?)


We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
(So this child has actually studied these things in school? I think
not, so where did it come from? And ask your fifth graders at home
exactly where would they go, outside the home, to get free condoms? I
want to know how many of them have a viable answer?)


It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
(I somehow doubt that this child, this fifth grader has it any worse in
school than I did. We were the first of our generation to have security
guards in the school, and we lived through the reasons WHY. It had ALOT
to do with God, because it was a time when civil rights were being
pushed back in the name of God. Do they teach this part in school when
they teach about the civil rights activism of the 60's & 70's?)

This is clearly a message of hate, fear, and bigotry that is being
ruthlessly taught to children all over our nation. If this was written
by a fifth grader, these are not thoughts of this child’s own
revelation. The unfortunate thing is that NO ONE ever corrected this
child; NO ONE ever explained that the thoughts are wrong. AND SOME OF
YOU STILL THINK – our society is a mess because of the godless. WHAT
DO YOU TEACH YOUR CHILDREN????

I saw no mention in the original post as to the age of this kid. May
well have been written by a senior in high school.

Dave,

From my point of view if the government is condoning any particular
religion (or ‘church ideology’) then it *is* sponsoring it. It doesn’t
necessarily need to be financially sponsoring it. If it supports it by
using its ideology in government-related things like pledges of
allegiance to the country then it is sponsoring it as far as I'm
concerned.

Political and legal arguments are never cut and dry.

If the government isn’t suppose to sponsor a church (or any particular
ideology) then they shouldn’t sponsor it in any form. I wouldn’t limit
that to mean only financial sponsorship of a physical church.

So I believe that the idea of demanding a complete separation of church
and state based on the constitution is a completely valid one. I just
give things a little more leeway in their meanings than you might.

That’s what legislation is all about - we arguing the interpretations
of things. I would argue for a complete separation of church and state
based on my interpretation of the constitution.

I personally don’t believe that the thing posted in the OP was written
by a child to begin with. I think it was written by a vindictive adult
who likes to stir up trouble. (ha ha)

I agree with Red that most of the accusations in the writing are totally
untrue anyway.

I have been forced in public school to pray. What's more, the adults
were also. If they wanted to keep their jobs that is.

To set the record straight, there was much debate over the pledge and
over the national anthem in schools and at public events. The debate
was brought about by those whose civil rights were being, had been
denied for more than 100 years. It was a civil war! The largest group
fighting for equality at the time, was demanding that the the black
national anthem be played anytime any public gathering heard our
national anthem. Those riding the coat tails of this civil action took
advantage of the times and also requested that the Pledge also return to
it's originally written state - without the words "under God".
For a time, due to the volital conditions in scholls, those prayers that
presided at the beginning of every public meeting, ceased. Some even
experimented with "allowing" those who did not want to say the pledge,
so remain silent. In my school, it ended when everyone became silent.

It was the politicians seeking peace who put a political perspective on
it and in their politically correct manner, simply said, it is not
considered mandatory to say the pledge in school. It was, for your
information, the christians who took offense at this, it was the
christians who enforced a view of bigoted negativity. Nothing like
getting in peoples faces to get the ball rolling, is there.

The references are specific in that praying in school is not allowed,
The first stanza Clearly states its against the rule to pray. No where
does it say he wants to, and in the same Stanza he questions why would
God be in the pledge of allegiance and yet it is not allowed to be
recited. This in itself is a contradiction of the founding fathers. In
God We trust is and has been on our currency for many generations. Is
this also going to be erased from our Idols?

Our Founding fathers use God for a specific reason, is it because
religion teaches Morallity? I believe so, If the 10 commandments were
something else that wasn't passed to Moses and were just someones
creation, What would morality mean?

This poem speaks about the heart of all the controversies in regards to
Freedoms. Who deserves what? Who gets what? The child is confused
because he is taught to be respectful of others yet he is not allowed to
say God or refer to His books in a public setting, yet all these others
are allowed to prance around like fools in heat and be any spectacle
they wish. He speaks of how its alright to be Immoral in his eyes. AND
it speaks that itas ok that Gods morality isn't allowed to be taught.

The Bill of rights is being used to manipulate the masses for those who
want things to be done thier way. These few make money for thier
so-called causes. Do some research the family who PUSHED the original
fight about the Pledge of Allegiance claimed to be Athiest, however
after all of it was brought out in the open they explained they realized
a way to get fame and fortune.

This is childish BS, Its mine you can't have it idiolgy. I want you to
do it MY way thinking, you have to do it this way because that is the
literal translation. Translate this -------------. That is BS also, show
me where in any book that I HAVE to do it your way and It will happen
over My dead Body. Show me where in the Bill of Rights it says God is a
bad word?

Seperation of Church and state is what is specified, Public schools are
considered state due to the nature of the funding. Public schools are
where children learn history, math, english, foriegn languages, etc.
Most of all they learn Morality. What is right and what is wrong. Show
me where or when anyone in the last few generations anyone has ever been
forced to Pray in school? As far as I know religion has never been
taught in ANY public school, show me where anyone was ever forced to
take a religion class?

Give me a break, these God terrorists are literally taking all my rights
away from me one by one. Today the discusion is on God and the schools,
another hot topic is Gun control. Where does it stop? When you pry it
from my DEAD FINGERS, be it book or gun I will be one of the few, the
proud, and ready to fight for what I feel is right.




G

I remember the Lord's Prayer and our national anthem (Canada)as far back
as grade 4 right up to the end of junior high. It changed in response
to what happened elsewhere and our schools denied and removed the Lord's
Prayer but we sang the national anthem in high school. I also remember
kid's who did not recite the prayer but bowed their heads and some left
the room and stood in the hall.

Anyone notice that since the prayers have stopped in school, the
shootings have taken their place? A lesson to be learned here.

I do need to edit something, religion was a class that was offered but
not required.

G

I personally feel that anyone who is concerned with pushing religious
practices onto public schools is an unreasonable fanatic no matter what
their beliefs.

It’s simply not the purpose of schools to teach religions. Period.

Why is that so hard to grasp about that?

The problem stems from the fact that religious views have been taught in
schools in the past and now people would like to stop that practice.
It was a mistake to have ever started that practice in the first place.