You are soooo RIGHT!

It also hurts sometimes,can't quench the thirst. and semms a bit fleeting, futile.

The truth is not what hurts or causes suffering. It is resistance to the truth that does.

And attempting to wrap My mind around the (fact?)that nothing is true,or false,or real,is a beautiful,Yet bitter pill.

I see. Well we long timers in this club have had long discussions about what constitutes reality and what is "real."

I am of the opinion that consciousness is real. Probably the only real thing. Consciousness expresses itself via life from our perspective here in this 'reality."

Also, if we decide that something is real, we can call it real if we want. So in that respect, what we say is real .... is real.

We have manifested reality. It is real to us. Reality is real. We just don't understand the nature of it or how it came to be.

But yes, it is real. It is the only reality we know and we have made it so and we have called it real.

Experience is the only thing that is real.

Experience is reality.

Can you control and alter your experience?

If so, then you can control and alter your reality.

What more need be said?

Very true.

And we are simply "expeiencers" (Or experience gatherers) LOL

Experiences are 'events.'

I have always said that the three dimensions of space and the dimension of time are simply co-ordinates for the location of an event.

CharlieP - Your are acting worse than than the religious fundamentalists - at least they have some kind of quazi belief system they are fighting tooth and nail to uphold.

Get IN the conversation:
What beliefs to you hold to? To what do you assign value and what is the source of its value to you?

When you say your life is good and then point to a brimming bank account - I think of Mother Teresa. Do you think she died a pauper?

Do you think she was happy & fulfilled?

Its easy to tell people what they believe is frivolous or not worthy of spending their time or money or putting in the effort to learn from others who hold similar beliefs.

Its much more difficult to search yourself and decide what you give value to, what you believe in, and why.

So COME ON - JOIN the discussion, don't just be a discenting voice. You have opinions and reasons for those opinions - you've worked hard to come by them so share them. I'm interested and others would be too but not at the expense of your harsh judgments.

I thougt You said that You think of time/space as nonexistent?

Wow - great thread, just look at what the OP inspired. For every person who posted there is an individual system of belief. At times some people were even trying to make connections by showing how their belief is similar to another or why it differs. As usual, there were those who felt their beliefs to be above others.

It was very interesting reading about all the Karma and intent stuff, amazing how many different spins we can all put on it and consider the mere handful who have posted here relative to a world population.

About Karma: Below are some statements I found – I’ve tried not to take them out of context and if I have I don’t think it usurps the original meaning – my purpose is to find commonality between the various ideas behind karma.










Now I’m going to weigh in with how I consolidate all this with my own beliefs.
First, I just want to point out that my beliefs are typically guided by philosophy (particularly ethics) and science and as such they are subject to change as I learn more and as philosophy changed to keep pace with the new lifestyles brought about by science and technology.

The great philosopher, Kant, had a lot to say karma, though he wasn’t really addressing karma but rather, intent. Non-the-less he’s a good read for anyone who considers the intent behind our actions and how it relates to ethical/moral ideologies of good and bad. It definitely makes a person question their own beliefs on the subject matter.

The above descriptions of Karma all have one related component – cause and effect. I liked the way Abra put it so I’m quoting it below.


I think that definition is a pretty good (amicable) place from which we all begin. From there we spin our own webs.

As for me:
I think that all of physicality exists as a tightly bound structure, possibly infinite – if one considers current theories of quantum physics and string theory and of course relativity. I also think that nothing physical exists in static. In other words constant change, through motion, may possibly be what causes the changes to the physical structure of the universe, thus presenting us with the illusion of that structure being ‘constantly’ maintained, when actually the structure itself is just as prone to cause and effect.

As an example: relate the closed system of the Earths echosystem to the structure of the universe. The Earths echosystem responds to every input internally and externally – it evolves, not to preserve any particular environment but only in response to stimuli.

That lays the groundwork for my belief in karma – every action we take, every movement (even breathing) is a cause which produces a physical effect. Good intention or bad is relevant only to an individuals further ethical/moral beliefs.

As for pay-back and instant karma and ‘stupid’ karma, I have other beliefs which differ in theory but not in outcome – for example: I think that the way our bio-physiological bodies evolved is the reason why we take actions without considering every possible outcome of that action, we simply do not have the computing ability to do so. In the same breath I also relate the tightly bound physical system to the effects of our actions. Sometimes we reap what we sow and it seems justified (karma) and sometimes we meet the effects of our actions many years later in ways too obscure to relate to past events.

That’s my take and that’s how I find the common threads of all our ideologies.

Thanks chrisbuckles for starting a great thread – for keeping it going – and for your boundless patience and TERRIFIC responses to some, less willing to consider our commonalities.

A coordinate is simply a reference or an address within the matrix. It would be like finding a particular spot in a movie on a DVD. Its just a number. Its not actually a three dimensional place or time.

Imagine a DVD that projects a three dimensional event rather than the ones we know that only show a two dimensional event on the t.v. screen. Imagine that you as an observer can see and experience that three dimensional event as if you were actually there. Robert Monroe called that kind of story a "rote." It was like a three dimensional book that you could access and experience.

In a DVD movie you can find the coordinate to reach a particular event on the DVD. You don't have to start from the beginning and go to the end of the story. You can access the story from any number of points.

To add to that, this does not mean that the past actually exists, it only means that it exists as a kind of collective memory. This memory might contain memories from many different points of view in the collective mind. (No one's memory of an event is the same as anyone else's.)

The spacetime matrix is probably manifested by the collective minds of the participants and the coordinates to locate certain events in the past are probably still in tact as long as this reality still exists.

so space/time is the triangulation of all events. where and when it occurs. is our conciousness 'there'as well?

is that what is referred to as the 'Cosmic Conciousness'?

I supposes. I hear that term a lot. To me, it suggests a "whole" that is working together. (with its parts) I believe there is a hub where information is organized and used by sentience (awareness) or of course you can call it God. But I don't see it as a single being. More of a group that works together as a whole. It is an intelligent awareness that delegates information and energy to its many parts.

Parts that are not sentient or aware or conscious enough to create something or manifest are used as energy or the body until they evolve or grow and become more aware.

It is like our own body. Our body is like a universe. Our cells and organs all have information and specific duties. Millions of other parts all work together to keep our bodies alive. And yet we don't consciously get involved in that work as we live our lives. However our thought and perceptions can effect our health in ways you don't even realize.

I actually don't see myself as a single being anymore. I have so many different interests and aspects to my character, I can feel several dominant personalities living in my body. We do get along and cooperate, but I don't always agree with all of them. Its like I am a multi-personality, without the back outs.

I am reading a book now called counter clockwise, "Mindful health and the power of possibility" by ellen J. Langer. She believes that we can turn back the clock and actually feel and look younger by using our thoughts and beliefs.

(I want to see if I can transform my body to age 35.) I'll let you know if it works.


Thats just my idea.

Yes, but its sloppy and scattered and not as strong. Much like wanting to invoke "something" but not knowing what or being specific about what you want.

I'm with Abra on magic is science yet to be explained.

Enjoyed catching up on the reading. Lots of great thoughts.

I have no idea what most people think magic is.

Looking in the eyes of a small child as she chases the flickering waves of june bugs through an evening shadowed meadow.

one gets the impression that 'magic' is a perception.

I think magic is mostly a very natural thing. In the tarot, the magician is a person who has learned how to get what he wants using his imagination and his tools to the best of his ability. Unlike the fool who is a bit clueless HOW to go about getting what he desires, the magician is a bit more knowledgeable.

So I think we are all magicians. How far we can develop these powers is the question. We always hear lately that we create our own personal experiences and reality. What some call magic is doing that to the amazement of others, or going beyond what is considered to be normal.

I know I can be the cause of getting the things I want, but in normal terms, there are certain things I have to do to get them.

I would like to be able to just think about my kitchen being clean and it just transforms like magic, but I have to actually wash the dishes and clean it up myself to make it happen now.

Whether or not we can ever have more of a magical control over our reality or not remains to be seen. How far we can go remains to be seen. So far, most of the magic seems pretty natural.

That's it right there. The art of magick is nothing more than knowing how to use your powers creatively in a way that creates the reality you desire.

Precisely how this can be taken is truly unknown. Even scientists and doctors have confirmed via studies that a person mental well-being does indeed have an affect on their physical health. In other words, our state of mind affects how our biological bodies perform. That's a given fact of modern science and medicine.

Can people give plausible physical explanations for this? Sure! So what? Does that refute magick or actually confirm that even science supports it?

Ultimately this all comes down to how one defines 'magick', if they insist that magick applies onto to things that are scientifically impossible, then by their very definition they have forced magick into being a concept that can never be scientifically justified.

On the other hand, if they accept the definition of 'magick' as it is often taught by many people who write books on the subject, then they would have no choice but to recognize that magick is indeed a very valid concept.

So ultimately most arguments about "magick" are reduced to semantics of the word. I use "magick" (with a k) as opposed to using "magic" (with a c), to distinquish between staged illusions, and genuine tranformations using the tools of ancient spiritual alchemy. The tools obviously exist. No one would deny that once they truly understand what the tools are. They are often referred to symbolically as Earth, Air, Fire and Water. But they actually represent, Physical manifestation, Mind, Creativity, and Emotion.

Once these four tools are truly understood and the maps and rituals of alchemy are also understood, then a person gains far more control over their life than they typical would have in the absence of this knowledge.