Community > Politics, Current News & Events

Topic: military gay ban bill blocked...
mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Tue 09/21/10 07:44 PM
Actually, that's great news. If, that's the same Defense Bill that had the Dream Act in it. Would have given millions of Illegals amnesty. the dems did that on purpose... now they blame the repubs for it, and they knew when they stuck it in there it would be shot down...

isaac_dede Joined Sat 11/24/07 Posts: 10632	Tue 09/21/10 07:44 PM
I think the majority of you and the public are missing the bigger picture here.This is not so much a gay issue as it is a relationship issue.In the Navy very few ships have both males and females on them.The reason is you put 100 women on a ship with 5,000 men and 96 of them come back pregnant.Once a woman is pregnant there are many laws in the military for how she can perform work.She can't stand for more than a 45 minutes,can't sit for a certain amount of time,can't life over 15 pounds,etc,etc.I hate to say it but a command full of pregnant women is almost useless if you have to perform any sort of manual labor.I speak from experience as the command I was on had women and nearly all of them were pregnant.All of them had excuses why they could not work because they were pregnant. Take another ship with half males and half females.How many of them are going to be having sex,falling in love,and losing track of their job function because they are thinking about this other person.All these problems only hurt a command and make it weak.What do you do when you are on a ship for 6 or 9 months and you have 20 men and 20 women who were in love,broke up,and now hate each other and refuse to work with each other? You take a command with all women or all men and now you don't have to worry about people screwing other people,relationship spats,fighting,jealousy,puppy love,and favoritism because they are a female or a male. You bring in being openly gay men and women to a command and you will have all these issues I spoke about because people are going to have sex and relationships no matter what the rules are.At least if you have 5,000 men on a aircraft carrier with no women you take out all of those problems and the command runs smoothly.If half of those men are gay and proud about it you have a hell of a problem much like you do with women. it must have been awhile since you were last in, now EVERY ship the last all male ship just went away, has both men and women. And trust me I do understand your annoyance with pregnant women in the military. We were undermanned severely and we got three new females in my division within 2 months all 3 were pregnant and gone...leaving us undermanned and under-billeted because they were filling the billet(at least on paper) so we were now 'fully' manned with the same amount of bodies we had to begin with. work days were 18+hrs a day....deployment wasn't fun. But that is not the issue here. The issues is gays in the military honestly most gay guys I know(i have a few friends) say that the military is the last place they would go and the ones that say they'ed want to go said they probably wouldn't even tell if they were allowed. This is a political issue and I believe it should be put to a vote...but how about the soliers,sailors,marines,coasties, and airman vote on it? you know the ones it would most effect.

willing2 Joined Sun 06/08/08 Posts: 20221	Tue 09/21/10 07:56 PM
it must have been awhile since you were last in, now EVERY ship the last all male ship just went away, has both men and women. And trust me I do understand your annoyance with pregnant women in the military. We were undermanned severely and we got three new females in my division within 2 months all 3 were pregnant and gone...leaving us undermanned and under-billeted because they were filling the billet(at least on paper) so we were now 'fully' manned with the same amount of bodies we had to begin with. work days were 18+hrs a day....deployment wasn't fun. But that is not the issue here. The issues is gays in the military honestly most gay guys I know(i have a few friends) say that the military is the last place they would go and the ones that say they'ed want to go said they probably wouldn't even tell if they were allowed. This is a political issue and I believe it should be put to a vote...but how about the soliers,sailors,marines,coasties, and airman vote on it? you know the ones it would most effect. How did they wind up pregnant?? One thing thje gay boys gots goin' for 'em. They can't get knocked up.

Goofball73 Joined Mon 11/05/07 Posts: 33913	Tue 09/21/10 08:07 PM
They stuck an amnesty deal into a lifting gay ban bill? Wow! That's like sticking Megan Fox into a box of cereal as the prize. The two just don't go together.

Thomas3474 Joined Mon 11/10/08 Posts: 2713	Tue 09/21/10 08:24 PM
I think the majority of you and the public are missing the bigger picture here.This is not so much a gay issue as it is a relationship issue.In the Navy very few ships have both males and females on them.The reason is you put 100 women on a ship with 5,000 men and 96 of them come back pregnant.Once a woman is pregnant there are many laws in the military for how she can perform work.She can't stand for more than a 45 minutes,can't sit for a certain amount of time,can't life over 15 pounds,etc,etc.I hate to say it but a command full of pregnant women is almost useless if you have to perform any sort of manual labor.I speak from experience as the command I was on had women and nearly all of them were pregnant.All of them had excuses why they could not work because they were pregnant. Take another ship with half males and half females.How many of them are going to be having sex,falling in love,and losing track of their job function because they are thinking about this other person.All these problems only hurt a command and make it weak.What do you do when you are on a ship for 6 or 9 months and you have 20 men and 20 women who were in love,broke up,and now hate each other and refuse to work with each other? You take a command with all women or all men and now you don't have to worry about people screwing other people,relationship spats,fighting,jealousy,puppy love,and favoritism because they are a female or a male. You bring in being openly gay men and women to a command and you will have all these issues I spoke about because people are going to have sex and relationships no matter what the rules are.At least if you have 5,000 men on a aircraft carrier with no women you take out all of those problems and the command runs smoothly.If half of those men are gay and proud about it you have a hell of a problem much like you do with women. it must have been awhile since you were last in, now EVERY ship the last all male ship just went away, has both men and women. And trust me I do understand your annoyance with pregnant women in the military. We were undermanned severely and we got three new females in my division within 2 months all 3 were pregnant and gone...leaving us undermanned and under-billeted because they were filling the billet(at least on paper) so we were now 'fully' manned with the same amount of bodies we had to begin with. work days were 18+hrs a day....deployment wasn't fun. But that is not the issue here. The issues is gays in the military honestly most gay guys I know(i have a few friends) say that the military is the last place they would go and the ones that say they'ed want to go said they probably wouldn't even tell if they were allowed. This is a political issue and I believe it should be put to a vote...but how about the soliers,sailors,marines,coasties, and airman vote on it? you know the ones it would most effect. Yes it has been a while since I was in.I still am in contact with active members of the military I used to serve with but I typically don't talk about these issues or talk about if a ship is coed or not.Thanks for the update. Getting back to the main issue.The military frowns and discourages relationships between members on the same command.It is very rare to have married people serving on the same command for the obvious reason that is a conflict of interest. Could you imagine if you had 200 people going into battle and half of them were married and their spouse was fighting along with him or her?Take 10 Navy seals and put one women in the group that is married to one of the 10 Navy seals.If she dies or her husband dies that person is going to be so emotional distraught they will not want to do anything but lay down and cry. The ideal command will have either all women or all men and all of them will be single.You take out relationship problems,lovers spats,fighting,divorce problems,pregnacies,hardships from staying away from loved ones for long periods of time,sexual problems and temptations,and many more.This ideal command will not be possible anymore with openly gays.It is probably these very reasons why women are not allowed to serve in combat operations.It needlessly puts too many problems into a already difficult and tense situation.

Lpdon Joined Thu 02/25/10 Posts: 18772	Tue 09/21/10 08:54 PM
Why even enlist if you're gay? It's going to be found out sooner or later and it's going to cause problems. Sure, if you want to fight for your country, that's great, but not in a combat unit where testosterone flows freely and in huge amounts. i never had a big problem with gays in the military, i just question their motives when they say they need to be "open" about it. the military is not a "love connection" by any means and should never be. anyone that can follow the rules and pass the qualifications should be allowed to fight and die if necessary. The don't ask don't policy is fair and just for everyone, because they do not ask if you are hetero sexual either... but you dont get booted out of the service if your found out to be in a heterosexual relationship...thus the need to repeal the "dont ask dont tell", why force one segment of the population to hide who and what they are just so they can serve their country? Yes you can and many do.Officers are forbidden to have sexual relationships with Enlisted members.Many have been stripped of their rank and discharged for this reason.You can also get discharged if you are a supervisor having sex with someone on your command who you supervise.This is a serious issues especially in War time because that supervisor may give the person he or she is having sex with a cushy easy job or more than the usual time off from the command. Other than those reasons you can get discharged for Adultery which is a crime in the military.You can also get discharged for having sex with someone on the command you are stationed(if you are caught in the act).You can get discharged for having sex with someone in their barracks where men or women are not allowed in the rooms.Etc,etc,etc. Adultry is a crime in the military? What about when their commander and chief keeps doing it over and over again? I guess it's do as I say not as I do?

pmarco41 Joined Wed 04/30/08 Posts: 2163	Tue 09/21/10 09:00 PM
There is so many other issues that open up with repealing the ban...yes their are gays serving in the military(and yes the service members know) the problem with making it 'open' it will bring about a lot of other questions...for example if a service member is openly gay and has commented to a fellow co-worker about a guy he likes in a unit and that co-worker gets wind of it...will he still be comfortable if he has to share a tent with that guy on the battlefield? there is also the fact that a lot of service member make 'gay' jokes all the time, if it is allowed to be open how many whiny people are we going to have saying 'i'm gay, and that offend me' there is also a million other issues that come up. And I know two people personally he have been "kicked" out because they were gay...in both instances they admitted that they were gay so they WOULD get kicked out...it was a way out of their contract. I've also known one straight guy that got kicked out because he convinced his chain of command that he was gay...again IN ORDER to get kicked out. yeah, I see it as the same as a heterosexual woman presenting herself amongst other men to get in and then later revealing she is actually a female sexual preference is as legitimate an issue when making housing arrangements as sexual gender is this is where one of the major issues arises for example on a ship(i'm navy as most know) there is not much space for separate quarters or berthings one of the solutions that has come up is if gays are allowed to share quarters with the other men why aren't the woman? is it really that different? the other solution(not really practical is another berthing but the ships have no space as is) I cant think of a solution either. It may save money to make everyone bunk together and shower together regardless of GENDER. After all, IF a homosexual can be bunking with those they are attracted to why cant a heterosexual? But I think , as long as gender differences are going to be aknowledged and accomodated,, so too should differences in sexual preferences or you could just say "don't ask, don't tell" the problem that brings is that it allows heterosexuals a privilege it doesnt allow homosexuals ( to be open in their preferences) thats why I say, it would be most fair to aknowledge sexual preference and gender and not force those who would be uncomfortable as potential eye candy to bunk with potential admirers it would take a pretty big overhaul,, but let men and women who dont mind bunking together do so, let heteros and homosexuals who dont mind bunking together to do so,, but dont force those arrangements on anyone who isnt comfortable with it agreed...but how to you do that on a battlefield? when you only have tents? and therein lies the real source of fear..straight men are scared to death of gay men..because you guys KNOW how other guys think..doncha..? doncha..?

Redykeulous Joined Thu 11/09/06 Posts: 6052	Tue 09/21/10 09:25 PM
There is so many other issues that open up with repealing the ban...yes their are gays serving in the military(and yes the service members know) the problem with making it 'open' it will bring about a lot of other questions...for example if a service member is openly gay and has commented to a fellow co-worker about a guy he likes in a unit and that co-worker gets wind of it...will he still be comfortable if he has to share a tent with that guy on the battlefield? there is also the fact that a lot of service member make 'gay' jokes all the time, if it is allowed to be open how many whiny people are we going to have saying 'i'm gay, and that offend me' there is also a million other issues that come up. And I know two people personally he have been "kicked" out because they were gay...in both instances they admitted that they were gay so they WOULD get kicked out...it was a way out of their contract. I've also known one straight guy that got kicked out because he convinced his chain of command that he was gay...again IN ORDER to get kicked out. yeah, I see it as the same as a heterosexual woman presenting herself amongst other men to get in and then later revealing she is actually a female sexual preference is as legitimate an issue when making housing arrangements as sexual gender is this is where one of the major issues arises for example on a ship(i'm navy as most know) there is not much space for separate quarters or berthings one of the solutions that has come up is if gays are allowed to share quarters with the other men why aren't the woman? is it really that different? the other solution(not really practical is another berthing but the ships have no space as is) I cant think of a solution either. It may save money to make everyone bunk together and shower together regardless of GENDER. After all, IF a homosexual can be bunking with those they are attracted to why cant a heterosexual? But I think , as long as gender differences are going to be aknowledged and accomodated,, so too should differences in sexual preferences Here's a solution - just institutionalize the discrimination by making it a LAW that homosexuals CANNOT serve in the military. Billions have been lost and billions more will be lost as trained and valuable service members (homosexuals) continue to be discharged. It WILL continue as long as they are allowed to join. The only problem ya'all might have is getting the U.S. Supreme Court to sign off on that kind of legislation. In fact in recent weeks a District Supreme court Judge ruled that DADT is unconstitutional. Perhaps some strong lobbying is necessary, that kind that only costs several million dollars. Maybe then a 'complete' ban on homosexuals in the military can be had. Of course in the past, when homosexuals were banned from service, they were drafted anyway, whenever there was war. Hundreds of thousands of them during WWII alone. It's amazing but they not only got along well with heterosexuals, but just like heterosexuals, many life-long friendships resulted. That fact was brought to light during, the Korean, Viet Nam wars and into Desert Storm and again today. But those on the OUTSIDE still insist on projecting their own fears and homophobia onto those in service. So as a solution I suggest a complete ban - no fair calling them up during war time - unless there are totally separate but equal quarters, training, units ........oh, and perhaps a great big sign up bonus and full vetern benefits for personnel and their families after the contractual agreement has been fulfilled. Of course, if the war last longer a larger re-sign bonus may be in order..... Go for it - Ban them all (until they might be needed) Definately a much better arrangement.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Tue 09/21/10 09:37 PM
Just because they blocked voting on it, doesn't mean it goes away forever anyway.

Lpdon Joined Thu 02/25/10 Posts: 18772	Tue 09/21/10 10:06 PM
Just because they blocked voting on it, doesn't mean it goes away forever anyway. It kill's any hope atleast withing the next 8-10 years of it going though, unfortunately.

Redykeulous Joined Thu 11/09/06 Posts: 6052	Tue 09/21/10 10:21 PM
Just because they blocked voting on it, doesn't mean it goes away forever anyway. What I find ironic about this whole thing, is that the ENTIRE bill became about DADT. Not about the DREAM Act that was attached or about the millions of illegal immigrants that could have benefited from that Act. No, it had become about a significantly smaller (strictly American)population of homosexuals. The closer we get to equality, the greater the fear that is invoked. We need only look as close as the Civil Rights era to see how it works.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Tue 09/21/10 10:30 PM
There is so many other issues that open up with repealing the ban...yes their are gays serving in the military(and yes the service members know) the problem with making it 'open' it will bring about a lot of other questions...for example if a service member is openly gay and has commented to a fellow co-worker about a guy he likes in a unit and that co-worker gets wind of it...will he still be comfortable if he has to share a tent with that guy on the battlefield? there is also the fact that a lot of service member make 'gay' jokes all the time, if it is allowed to be open how many whiny people are we going to have saying 'i'm gay, and that offend me' there is also a million other issues that come up. And I know two people personally he have been "kicked" out because they were gay...in both instances they admitted that they were gay so they WOULD get kicked out...it was a way out of their contract. I've also known one straight guy that got kicked out because he convinced his chain of command that he was gay...again IN ORDER to get kicked out. yeah, I see it as the same as a heterosexual woman presenting herself amongst other men to get in and then later revealing she is actually a female sexual preference is as legitimate an issue when making housing arrangements as sexual gender is this is where one of the major issues arises for example on a ship(i'm navy as most know) there is not much space for separate quarters or berthings one of the solutions that has come up is if gays are allowed to share quarters with the other men why aren't the woman? is it really that different? the other solution(not really practical is another berthing but the ships have no space as is) I cant think of a solution either. It may save money to make everyone bunk together and shower together regardless of GENDER. After all, IF a homosexual can be bunking with those they are attracted to why cant a heterosexual? But I think , as long as gender differences are going to be aknowledged and accomodated,, so too should differences in sexual preferences or you could just say "don't ask, don't tell" the problem that brings is that it allows heterosexuals a privilege it doesnt allow homosexuals ( to be open in their preferences) thats why I say, it would be most fair to aknowledge sexual preference and gender and not force those who would be uncomfortable as potential eye candy to bunk with potential admirers it would take a pretty big overhaul,, but let men and women who dont mind bunking together do so, let heteros and homosexuals who dont mind bunking together to do so,, but dont force those arrangements on anyone who isnt comfortable with it agreed...but how to you do that on a battlefield? when you only have tents? and therein lies the real source of fear..straight men are scared to death of gay men..because you guys KNOW how other guys think..doncha..? doncha..?

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Tue 09/21/10 10:34 PM
Just because they blocked voting on it, doesn't mean it goes away forever anyway. What I find ironic about this whole thing, is that the ENTIRE bill became about DADT. Not about the DREAM Act that was attached or about the millions of illegal immigrants that could have benefited from that Act. No, it had become about a significantly smaller (strictly American)population of homosexuals. The closer we get to equality, the greater the fear that is invoked. We need only look as close as the Civil Rights era to see how it works. Fear is a powerful tool. How long ago did we over turn slavery? Blacks still don't have equality today so I guess that means that it takes a long long time. How long ago did women start to fight? And they are not equals still today. I guess we have to be glad of the small steps but it can be so frustrating.

Thomas3474 Joined Mon 11/10/08 Posts: 2713	Tue 09/21/10 10:37 PM
Just because they blocked voting on it, doesn't mean it goes away forever anyway. What I find ironic about this whole thing, is that the ENTIRE bill became about DADT. Not about the DREAM Act that was attached or about the millions of illegal immigrants that could have benefited from that Act. No, it had become about a significantly smaller (strictly American)population of homosexuals. The closer we get to equality, the greater the fear that is invoked. We need only look as close as the Civil Rights era to see how it works. The gays don't mean equality.They mean they want their lifestyle accepted everywhere they go by everyone they see and by every job they are hired for. Gays have all the equality every person in America has.The have every right every person in America has. Why should gays be treated any different than any other person discriminated against by the military?I already gave you a long list of people who are discriminated against for things they have no control over.Why are you saying gays should be accepted when someone who is too short or too tall is denied?Why should someone who is too old denied(such as a 45 year old)?These people can do the same job the gays could do but yet they are not crying about it. Stop asking for special rights and exceptions to discrimination which you are not in any way entitled to any more than the millions of others who were denied by the military for hundreds of reasons.Stop telling everyone that they have to accept your lifestyle because they don't!

d24 Joined Thu 09/20/07 Posts: 2560	Wed 09/22/10 07:08 AM
I have yet to see any Gay doing violence to another person.I dont think most will shoot If fired upon.

singmesweet Joined Mon 07/28/08 Posts: 26661	Wed 09/22/10 07:11 AM
Why even enlist if you're gay? It's going to be found out sooner or later and it's going to cause problems. Sure, if you want to fight for your country, that's great, but not in a combat unit where testosterone flows freely and in huge amounts. Seriously? Why shouldn't they be able to be in the military if they want? Sorry Peccy, but this is a lame argument.

Lpdon Joined Thu 02/25/10 Posts: 18772	Wed 09/22/10 07:53 AM
I have yet to see any Gay doing violence to another person.I dont think most will shoot If fired upon. I have heard about a Seal who was gay, and he was the top man in his unit.

Redykeulous Joined Thu 11/09/06 Posts: 6052	Wed 09/22/10 08:39 AM
Just because they blocked voting on it, doesn't mean it goes away forever anyway. It kill's any hope atleast withing the next 8-10 years of it going though, unfortunately. REALLY? How do you figure that?

Zapchaser Joined Sat 04/14/07 Posts: 2491	Thu 09/23/10 09:21 PM
Do you people think that there aren't any gays in the military now? Who the hell are we as a nation to say that we won't allow someone to fight alongside us for the same freedoms we strive to protect? It's time to grow up. I don't honestly think that a flaming drag queen is going to jump in line and grab the first rifle and head for the front line but I have to say that it would sure be funny! Most gay guys act like the rest of us. I don't agree with their sexual choice due to my personal beliefs but I would stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who is willing to protect our freedoms, and that includes the freedom to live your life in the way that you are happiest. Gay or straight. Guys, when you shower at the gym are you afraid that someone will look at your pecker? Then stop looking at theirs while trying to see how you measure up. That's just as queer as a gay guy looking at yours. Get rid of the ban. It is nothing short of idiotic and un-American.

singmesweet Joined Mon 07/28/08 Posts: 26661	Fri 09/24/10 08:03 AM
Do you people think that there aren't any gays in the military now? Who the hell are we as a nation to say that we won't allow someone to fight alongside us for the same freedoms we strive to protect? It's time to grow up. I don't honestly think that a flaming drag queen is going to jump in line and grab the first rifle and head for the front line but I have to say that it would sure be funny! Most gay guys act like the rest of us. I don't agree with their sexual choice due to my personal beliefs but I would stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who is willing to protect our freedoms, and that includes the freedom to live your life in the way that you are happiest. Gay or straight. Guys, when you shower at the gym are you afraid that someone will look at your pecker? Then stop looking at theirs while trying to see how you measure up. That's just as queer as a gay guy looking at yours. Get rid of the ban. It is nothing short of idiotic and un-American. I'm happy to see that even someone who does not agree with their sexual beliefs can be completely reasonable and realize that they are in the military for the same reason as everyone else. Good post.