if you are a nice guy, or an obnoxious jerk, its not what you choose because of whether or not he finishes last. A nice guy is just that, because he IS just that. An obnoxious jerk will have trouble knowing the difference.

what you give out, is what you will attract..

Question; Do nice and sweet guys really finish last?? I'm old school, you know the pull out the chair and open the doors for my lady. Bring flowers just because or whatever, but do we really finish last? Should I just be an obnoxious jerk, instead?

Do nice and sweet guys really finish last??

?? I'm old school, you know the pull out the chair and open the doors for my lady. Bring flowers just because or whatever,

Should I just be an obnoxious jerk, instead?

what you give out, is what you will attract..

If the entirety of their personality and the only way they identify themselves is as a "nice and sweet guy" then it's a facade.

Those tend to "finish last" because that can only be maintained for so long, and the facade can only be successful for so long until the real personality starts shining through, which leads to a lot of miscommunication and false signaling.


How old school?
Do you understand why pulling out chairs and opening doors for ladies is associated with "chivalry?"

Research the evolution of door hinges and door construction.
They used to be solid wood or metal. That's pretty heavy.
Look at practical antique chairs vs. what you can find at IKEA.
Durability and lasting time = weight.
Stainless steel, lubrication, veneer, press wood, hollow core, all recent inventions.

Wrap a "lady" in a corset that cuts off her breathing, put her in a hoop skirt, or crinoline iron cage, possibly flared out a foot or two from her body, means she can't really open a (potentially heavy) door or scoot a chair very well without screwing up her clothes, passing out from exertion, or even see where to sit since she can't even see her legs or feet.
I'd never thought about this. Wonderful explanation!

If all you're (general you, "nice and sweet guys") doing is holding the door and pulling out a chair simply because someone told you to, then you aren't really showing any kind of respect for a lady, you are only communicating that you are trainable, don't really think about what you're doing, follow blindly, at best.

At worst you are simply attempting to manipulate her perceptions to see you as a "nice and sweet guy" or "gentleman," fulfilling the script for the character you want her to see you as.
You are performing these functions simply because you want/expect a desired reaction from her, not because you see it as your duty to help her in some way because you appreciate certain inherent difficulties which may exist.

It becomes a transaction. "I buy you a cookie, you give me a cookie. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. If you don't, you're the bad guy. Doesn't matter if you don't want the cookie, don't want to scratch my back, or that I only bought the cookie because someone told me to. It's bought. You owe me."

And flowers? They were like emoticons, or loaded texts. Different colors, different arrangements, different scents, had specific meanings.
Still goes today, provided they're bought with the right intention, like you're explaining.
My ex hubby used to get me roses each week. A colleague of his sold them on Fridays, so there was never much choice in colour and no special arrangement. Just 10-20 roses. The first few weeks I was thrilled, then it became a habit, and after a while it even began to annoy me to yet again have to cut those roses with their nasty thorns. It wasn't special anymore.

The other side: My man bought me flowers for my birthday in May. He chose a special arrangement, wanted red and most had lots of pink. He made an effort to get the flowers he wanted to buy, which were red. And a nice thingy in it on a stick with hearts and red feathers.
Did that make me feel special? Hell yes! I was ecstatic
Same with the birthday card he got me. It's about the effort and choosing especially for me. Not just any card or any bunch of flowers.
Do you know if they know the meaning of the flowers that you're presenting to her? Or is it just "here's something pretty to distract you. I just want you to build a positive association with me. It's all about you seeing me as good."
Are you aware of any allergies she may have?
Do you realize the scent of roses have mostly been bred out, those commercially sold (pretty much everything sold by a florist or at the grocery store) are perfumed by synthetic chemicals? They don't really have a smell at all.
You kidding? The ones in my garden do



If being a "nice and sweet guy" is predicated only on pulling out chairs, opening doors, and buying flowers for some unknown purpose, putting no real thought into why they are doing it or forming purposeful behavior based on a desire to communicate specific respect or discrete affection, then why shouldn't "nice and sweet guys" finish last?


IMO if a guy is just following social training (like opening doors, holding chairs, buying flowers) simply because they were taught to do so, expecting women to reciprocate, respect, and value the mindless behavior simply because that behavior is expressed/performed, then that person isn't really being a nice and sweet guy, and is kind of acting like an obnoxious jerk.

IMO following social rules and cues without any thought isn't being a "nice and sweet guy."

"Nice and sweet" is a thoughtful choice that naturally perpetuates stemming from consistent use from consistent choice.
Not simply responding to socialized training.


If that were true, no one would approach me in parking lots, or gas stations, asking for money.
well actually, it IS true... Put up a negative profile text on a dating site, stating things like "I DONT want this and that, if you do that DO NOT contact me", guess what kind of person will react? Yep, the A-holes you thought you were repelling. Instead of repelling you attract them with your own negativity.
Change your profile text into something ridiculously positive (heartfelt) and the A-holes stay away. Truly works that way. I tried and tested it.
Negative people (which is also sad, depressed etc. not just angry) are repelled by positiveness. But you cannot pretend it, it's got to be real as it's an energetic exchange.

Question; Do nice and sweet guys really finish last??

If the entirety of their personality and the only way they identify themselves is as a "nice and sweet guy" then it's a facade.

Those tend to "finish last" because that can only be maintained for so long, and the facade can only be successful for so long until the real personality starts shining through, which leads to a lot of miscommunication and false signaling.


How old school?
Do you understand why pulling out chairs and opening doors for ladies is associated with "chivalry?"

Research the evolution of door hinges and door construction.
They used to be solid wood or metal. That's pretty heavy.
Look at practical antique chairs vs. what you can find at IKEA.
Durability and lasting time = weight.
Stainless steel, lubrication, veneer, press wood, hollow core, all recent inventions.

Wrap a "lady" in a corset that cuts off her breathing, put her in a hoop skirt, or crinoline iron cage, possibly flared out a foot or two from her body, means she can't really open a (potentially heavy) door or scoot a chair very well without screwing up her clothes, passing out from exertion, or even see where to sit since she can't even see her legs or feet.

If all you're (general you, "nice and sweet guys") doing is holding the door and pulling out a chair simply because someone told you to, then you aren't really showing any kind of respect for a lady, you are only communicating that you are trainable, don't really think about what you're doing, follow blindly, at best.

At worst you are simply attempting to manipulate her perceptions to see you as a "nice and sweet guy" or "gentleman," fulfilling the script for the character you want her to see you as.
You are performing these functions simply because you want/expect a desired reaction from her, not because you see it as your duty to help her in some way because you appreciate certain inherent difficulties which may exist.

It becomes a transaction. "I buy you a cookie, you give me a cookie. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. If you don't, you're the bad guy. Doesn't matter if you don't want the cookie, don't want to scratch my back, or that I only bought the cookie because someone told me to. It's bought. You owe me."

And flowers? They were like emoticons, or loaded texts. Different colors, different arrangements, different scents, had specific meanings.
Do you know if they know the meaning of the flowers that you're presenting to her? Or is it just "here's something pretty to distract you. I just want you to build a positive association with me. It's all about you seeing me as good."
Are you aware of any allergies she may have?
Do you realize the scent of roses have mostly been bred out, those commercially sold (pretty much everything sold by a florist or at the grocery store) are perfumed by synthetic chemicals? They don't really have a smell at all.



If being a "nice and sweet guy" is predicated only on pulling out chairs, opening doors, and buying flowers for some unknown purpose, putting no real thought into why they are doing it or forming purposeful behavior based on a desire to communicate specific respect or discrete affection, then why shouldn't "nice and sweet guys" finish last?


IMO if a guy is just following social training (like opening doors, holding chairs, buying flowers) simply because they were taught to do so, expecting women to reciprocate, respect, and value the mindless behavior simply because that behavior is expressed/performed, then that person isn't really being a nice and sweet guy, and is kind of acting like an obnoxious jerk.

IMO following social rules and cues without any thought isn't being a "nice and sweet guy."

"Nice and sweet" is a thoughtful choice that naturally perpetuates stemming from consistent use from consistent choice.
Not simply responding to socialized training.


If that were true, no one would approach me in parking lots, or gas stations, asking for money.

Should I just be an obnoxious jerk, instead?

i like nice and sweet guys