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| Topic: Is Knowledge a Gift from Satan | |
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Edited by
Gwendolyn2009
on
Fri 04/16/10 04:33 PM
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I am not going off the point and I also notice that you do not address some of my comments and points. Gwendolyn ...the debate is about Satan giving knowledge to Adam and Eve....and you were bringing up Zeus and Loki and rape....were Zeus and Loki in the garden trying to rape Eve...or Adam perhaps? and that's why they ate from the fruit if the answer is no then you were going off the point Oh, so sorry for not realizing that you didn't want a more broadly based discussion that included archetypal examples of other religions. Silly me for being so global; I'll put some blinders on and pretend that neither Judaism nor Christianity are based on prior religions. |
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I am not going off the point and I also notice that you do not address some of my comments and points. Gwendolyn ...the debate is about Satan giving knowledge to Adam and Eve....and you were bringing up Zeus and Loki and rape....were Zeus and Loki in the garden trying to rape Eve...or Adam perhaps? and that's why they ate from the fruit if the answer is no then you were going off the point Oh, so sorry for not realizing that you didn't want a more broadly based discussion that included archetypal examples of other religions. Silly me for being so global; I'll put some blinders on and pretend that neither Judaism nor Christianity are based on prior religions. sure that information you were providing would have been most welcome if the discussion was about archetypal examples of other religions prior to Judaism and/or Christianity but the topic was about Satan granting knowledge to Adam and Eve ... I did ask you what Zeus and Loki had to do with Eve, Satan and Adam in the garden but you didn't connect the dots |
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Great thread. I am really enjoying it. Knowledge coming from Satan? Makes sense. In Genesis 2:17 you get the "Thou shall not do this or you will die." In the 10 commandments you also get this "Thou shalt not this" (paraphrasing). Genesis 3:1 Satan acknowledges Genesis 2:17. So one can say knowledge paraphrased by Satan. Reminds me of the scriptures in Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Charlie Daniels in his song, "The Devil Went Down Georgia" acknowledges that, "You have to give the devil his due." I find being harmless as a dove difficult at times and being wise as a serpent equally difficult at times. I like this verses of Matthew 6:26 to 6:32 especially when it talks of the lilies of the field. Ignorance can be bliss.
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I guess one can say that ignorance can be a gift from God.
 
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I guess one can say that ignorance can be a gift from God. actually that was God's gift to Mankind.. ignorance ...I mean how smart was Adam and Eve ...Eve was in the garden holding a conversation with a talking snake which brings up some interesting questions ... could all the animals in the garden talk on a human level or did Adam and Eve communicate on an animal level ...or did none of the animals have the ability to talk .. if that is so then wouldn't Eve be amazed that a snake could talk and believe that God granted the snake this gift which would explain why Eve would believe anything the snake told her .... also since Adam and Eve lacked the knowledge of sin and deception they wouldn't know what a lie was or that something would lie to them this would make it seem that God made Man with a lack of knowledge and then punish them for it and called it disobediance |
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I did ask you what Zeus and Loki had to do with Eve, Satan and Adam in the garden but you didn't connect the dots Actually, I did connect the dots; you just weren't able to track the movement. It's OK, I am used to people not "getting" truly esoteric ideas and theories. |
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Edited by
funches
on
Sun 04/18/10 05:57 AM
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Actually, I did connect the dots; you just weren't able to track the movement. It's OK, I am used to people not "getting" truly esoteric ideas and theories. Gwendolyn...yes you were connecting the dots but those dots were off the topic...so can you connect the dots as to where in The Old testament it mention Zeus and Loki being in The Garden or Eden if you can not find any passage in the bible that mention Zeus or Loki then perhaps you will understand what I meant about you not connecting the dots pertaining to the topic of Satan granting knowledge to Mankind |
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I guess one can say that ignorance can be a gift from God. actually that was God's gift to Mankind.. ignorance ...I mean how smart was Adam and Eve ...Eve was in the garden holding a conversation with a talking snake which brings up some interesting questions ... could all the animals in the garden talk on a human level or did Adam and Eve communicate on an animal level ...or did none of the animals have the ability to talk .. if that is so then wouldn't Eve be amazed that a snake could talk and believe that God granted the snake this gift which would explain why Eve would believe anything the snake told her .... also since Adam and Eve lacked the knowledge of sin and deception they wouldn't know what a lie was or that something would lie to them this would make it seem that God made Man with a lack of knowledge and then punish them for it and called it disobediance They are good questions. One could wonder who God is talking to in Genesis 2:18 and How a voice can walk in Genesis 3:8 (I guess God can make himself any size he wants.) Have you noticed the use of third person speaking? (I took a Creative writing course once.) I have always wondered about the third person writing with the verse of Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image." Or was he actually speaking to someone else there? Same question for Genesis 3:22. I have heard some say that intelligent people talk to themselves and I have heard some people wonder about a person's sanity if they talk to themselves. I have been in damned if you do and damned if you don't circumstances. They can be frustrating. I like your choice of the word "seem". Very Freudian; As a psychiatrist asking, "What seems to be the problem?" You are being impartial and fair. One could even question God's sanity here if one wanted to if one took to the total personification route. By that one could see God and Satan as being the same entity. If one perceived that God had a conscience. But then one would wonder if he sent half of himself to hell since that is where the devil winds up. I guess it would just depend how literal one could take these readings.
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Gwendolyn...yes you were connecting the dots but those dots were off the topic...so can you connect the dots as to where in The Old testament it mention Zeus and Loki being in The Garden or Eden if you can not find any passage in the bible that mention Zeus or Loki then perhaps you will understand what I meant about you not connecting the dots pertaining to the topic of Satan granting knowledge to Mankind You REALLY missed the points of my posts. Myth is archetypal--the tales presented in the Hebrew Scriptures are found in many other mythoi. While the Hebrew scriptures are filled with references to other deities, including Astarte and Tammuz, they might not refer directly to Zeus and especially not to Loki. The archetypal associations, though, are clear. Loki and Hermes are the trickster gods; acthetypically speaking, when the serpent gets Eve to eat the fruit, he/she (the serpent is often represented as female in Medieval and Renaissance art), then it falls into the category of the trickster. Yawheh and Zeus are both "head" gods--and while Yahweh might be singular, Elohim is not. Both Yahweh and Zeus are male mothers; Yahweh creates Adam and Zeus "gives birth" to both Athena and Dionysus. Zeus punishes Prometheus for giving fire to man (and I mean man, not woman). "Fire" is not only a means to cook food and provide warmth, but it also symbolizes enlightenment and knowledge. This is a parallel myth to Eve getting knowledge in an illicit manner. People who do not have a broader understanding of how a mytho/mythos fits into the wider scopes of mythoi fail to see how the myths are basically the same tales. I bet that if you were writing about the flood, you wouldn't chastise someone for bringing up the Sumerian/Babylonian myth of Utnapishtim in Gilgamesh because they are clearly the same tale with different names; yet, you can't see the obvious connections of the creation myth with other myths. Not only that, tell me WHERE in the myth of Eve that they ate from a tree that gave them any other knowledge but of good and evil. It isn't there. If you are going to be single faceted and dogmatic about details, then stick to the details. As I said before, and which you ignored, the Jews didn't discourage knowledge, Adam and Eve didn't have a bible to follow, and keeping people in ignorance (as you categorize) was largely in more modern times when churches sought to keep people ignorant because ignorant people are easier to control. Before that (and during that time), learning was the province of upperclass men--not women, not slaves, and not the poor. Martin Luther, for all his faults, began the movement, for lack of a better word, to educate the masses so that they could read the Bible for themselves. Sunday School was originally held to teach kids how to read. And though all of that pertains to the subject at hand--god keeping people in ignorance--none of that happened in the Hebrew Scriptures, so they are moot points to this discussion. PEOPLE keep people in ignorance, not gods: gods are made in the image of humans. If you want to castigate someone for keeping populaces in states of ignorance, castigate humans. |
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One could wonder who God is talking to in Genesis 2:18 and How a voice can walk in Genesis 3:8 (I guess God can make himself any size he wants.) Have you noticed the use of third person speaking? (I took a Creative writing course once.) I have always wondered about the third person writing with the verse of Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image." Or was he actually speaking to someone else there? Same question for Genesis 3:22. I have heard some say that intelligent people talk to themselves and I have heard some people wonder about a person's sanity if they talk to themselves. I have been in damned if you do and damned if you don't circumstances. They can be frustrating. I like your choice of the word "seem". Very Freudian; As a psychiatrist asking, "What seems to be the problem?" You are being impartial and fair. One could even question God's sanity here if one wanted to if one took to the total personification route. By that one could see God and Satan as being the same entity. If one perceived that God had a conscience. But then one would wonder if he sent half of himself to hell since that is where the devil winds up. I guess it would just depend how literal one could take these readings. some Christian will claim The Trinity, that God was talking to Jesus and the holy spirit ....some wil claim that God was talking to the angels or to creation, but going by logic God was talking to himself ..this explain why he had a need to create because he was alone and was insane ..... to prove this to be true simply ask anyone why does a God that supposedly want or needs for naught have a "need" to create...every answer someone give will point to God being lonely and/or insane and that he was talking to himself |
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By that one could see God and Satan as being the same entity. If one perceived that God had a conscience. But then one would wonder if he sent half of himself to hell since that is where the devil winds up. I guess it would just depend how literal one could take these readings. some believers will tell you that God is the absence of evil...where there exist God no evil can dwell and that Hell is a place where God is absence ...they are in fact trying to distance God from evil as an attempt to explain why God allows evil to exist ...but if God is omnipresence and therefore exist everywhere then his presence also exist in Hell |
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You REALLY missed the points of my posts. Myth is archetypal and you are missing the point I'm trying to make by trying to debate part of it as being myth and part of it being hebrew scripture and not debating all of it as if it was truth... and I will give you an example why by using what you posted below --the tales presented in the Hebrew Scriptures are found in many other mythoi. While the Hebrew scriptures are filled with references to other deities, including Astarte and Tammuz, they might not refer directly to Zeus and especially not to Loki. The archetypal associations, though, are clear. Loki and Hermes are the trickster gods; acthetypically speaking, when the serpent gets Eve to eat the fruit, he/she (the serpent is often represented as female in Medieval and Renaissance art), then it falls into the category of the trickster. Yawheh and Zeus are both "head" gods--and while Yahweh might be singular, Elohim is not. Both Yahweh and Zeus are male mothers; Yahweh creates Adam and Zeus "gives birth" to both Athena and Dionysus. Zeus punishes Prometheus for giving fire to man (and I mean man, not woman). "Fire" is not only a means to cook food and provide warmth, but it also symbolizes enlightenment and knowledge. This is a parallel myth to Eve getting knowledge in an illicit manner. People who do not have a broader understanding of how a mytho/mythos fits into the wider scopes of mythoi fail to see how the myths are basically the same tales. I bet that if you were writing about the flood, you wouldn't chastise someone for bringing up the Sumerian/Babylonian myth of Utnapishtim in Gilgamesh because they are clearly the same tale with different names; yet, you can't see the obvious connections of the creation myth with other myths. Not only that, tell me WHERE in the myth of Eve that they ate from a tree that gave them any other knowledge but of good and evil. It isn't there. If you are going to be single faceted and dogmatic about details, then stick to the details. As I said before, and which you ignored, the Jews didn't discourage knowledge, Adam and Eve didn't have a bible to follow, and keeping people in ignorance (as you categorize) was largely in more modern times when churches sought to keep people ignorant because ignorant people are easier to control. Before that (and during that time), learning was the province of upperclass men--not women, not slaves, and not the poor. Martin Luther, for all his faults, began the movement, for lack of a better word, to educate the masses so that they could read the Bible for themselves. Sunday School was originally held to teach kids how to read. And though all of that pertains to the subject at hand--god keeping people in ignorance--none of that happened in the Hebrew Scriptures, so they are moot points to this discussion. PEOPLE keep people in ignorance, not gods: gods are made in the image of humans. If you want to castigate someone for keeping populaces in states of ignorance, castigate humans. THE EXAMPLE everything you posted above is myth see how easy it is to claim that anything and everything is a myth when it becomes in your best interest to do so .....if you agree with one part then you can claim it to be fact but if you disagree with another part then it's convenient to claim that it's a myth this is why if your going to debate in an attempt to find what is myth or truth you should try to debate as if everything in the story is truth ... |
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THE EXAMPLE everything you posted above is myth see how easy it is to claim that anything and everything is a myth when it becomes in your best interest to do so .....if you agree with one part then you can claim it to be fact but if you disagree with another part then it's convenient to claim that it's a myth this is why if your going to debate in an attempt to find what is myth or truth you should try to debate as if everything in the story is truth ... Adam and Eve are a myth. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a myth. Unless you are a fundamentalist Christian, there is no way around it. It isn't in my best interest to CLAIM that it is a myth, but I have explained and show why it is a myth. In this forum, you are not debating in order to convince Christians that either their sacred stories are myths or to establish a "truth": you debate in order to prove your points to yourself and to those who think the same way as you do. The whole argument about knowledge=evil is an old and rhetorical argument; I went into it in depth in my MA thesis. It is my fault, though--on a dating site, I should not expect to find a "debate" (and I loosely call this a debate because in reality, it isn't much of a debate) wherein the debaters not only have a firm grasp on the information that they are presenting, but that they are able to see points that do not agree with their own. Mea culpa. |
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I love Mea Culpa.
 Mea Culpa Mea Culpa be with me. Mea Culpa set me free. Mea Culpa let me be. Mea Culpa dance with me. Mea Culpa you're the one. Mea Culpa you're such fun. Mea Culpa I love you, hon. Mea Culpa we're not done. Mea Culpa loves me so. Mea Culpa I do know. Mea Culpa helps me grow. Mea Culpa lets me flow. |
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Adam and Eve are a myth. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a myth. Unless you are a fundamentalist Christian, there is no way around it. It isn't in my best interest to CLAIM that it is a myth, but I have explained and show why it is a myth. In this forum, you are not debating in order to convince Christians that either their sacred stories are myths or to establish a "truth": you debate in order to prove your points to yourself and to those who think the same way as you do. The whole argument about knowledge=evil is an old and rhetorical argument; I went into it in depth in my MA thesis. It is my fault, though--on a dating site, I should not expect to find a "debate" (and I loosely call this a debate because in reality, it isn't much of a debate) wherein the debaters not only have a firm grasp on the information that they are presenting, but that they are able to see points that do not agree with their own. Mea culpa. ok...I have to admit that was a pretty cool meltdown ...so now that you released all your pent up frustration can we get back on topic |
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I love Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa is a myth |
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All sin requires a consequence. The burden is the reminder of the consequences of disobedience. Woman’s consequence has the same reminder; her consequence is the pain of childbirth. It is the reminder of the pain of sin. because of Satan granting to the human race the desire to obtain and comprehend knowledge.. the knowledge now exist for a drug induced C-Section ...hence no pain ...women now have the power not to have pain or the power not to get pregnant...they in fact do not even have to have the baby themselves and can implant the egg into a surrogate the possibilites are endless the more knowledge obtain...the more one becomes God and need less of God Groans... Women feel the pain of childbirth because we walk upright, which has changed our pelvic center to accomodate that, and deliver babies with large heads, not because God is punishing us. Pandora was purposely set up by the Gods to fail. She was created to open the box. Zeus was further punishing Prometheus for gifting humans with fire, so he had her created and then endowed her with the curiousity to open the jar (in actuality - not a box). I all honesty, Yahweh set his people up to fail too. I've never known a child not to touch the fire, even when they were told not to. Sorry, don't buy it. |
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Adam and Eve are a myth. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a myth. Unless you are a fundamentalist Christian, there is no way around it. It isn't in my best interest to CLAIM that it is a myth, but I have explained and show why it is a myth. In this forum, you are not debating in order to convince Christians that either their sacred stories are myths or to establish a "truth": you debate in order to prove your points to yourself and to those who think the same way as you do. The whole argument about knowledge=evil is an old and rhetorical argument; I went into it in depth in my MA thesis. It is my fault, though--on a dating site, I should not expect to find a "debate" (and I loosely call this a debate because in reality, it isn't much of a debate) wherein the debaters not only have a firm grasp on the information that they are presenting, but that they are able to see points that do not agree with their own. Mea culpa. ok...I have to admit that was a pretty cool meltdown ...so now that you released all your pent up frustration can we get back on topic Go ahead--I am outta here. |
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There is nothing mankind knows that god did not allow him to know. Too much credit is given to that old snake. In the end he means nothing. Without love anyone is nothing. Satan is the most nothing of all since there is no love in him whatsoever. The only thing he loves is himself. Seek not that old snake. Attribute no excellence to him.
"Seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." Read proverbs if you want to know the value of knowledge. "When knowledge increases so does sorrow." Seek God's love. |
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I all honesty, Yahweh set his people up to fail too. I've never known a child not to touch the fire, even when they were told not to. Sorry, don't buy it. the bible would point to the fact that Adam and Eve had a lack of knowledge and there is no indication that Adam and Eve I.Q. was anymore than that of a child Satan had knowledge and played a role in the garden of eden incident but yet Man-Kind was condemn for all eternality but the race of Angels wasn't which is an indication that the fall of Man was part of God's Divine Plan |
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