Really, no offence was perceived on my end. It's my fault, I was taking a "jab" at you for generalizing.
You were in this thread earlier, correct? Wasn't it you who posted info about the pagan influence on the church? Earlier in this thread I stated that the trintiy was a pagan concept, so if it was you, you met a Christian back then who doesn't believe Jesus is God.

As for that "conversation"? If you mean the most recent one that seems to go nowhere, ignore it, it'll go away, there is no logic there.
As for the main topic, it's business as usual, you get genuine responses, then someone comes in and starts bashing other's beliefs and it all goes to pot.

Jesus and all Christians pray or prayed to the Father but the Father never prayed to Jesus or any of the christians ....so the answer is no ....Jesus is not God .....

yep...anything based on gullibility wouldn't have a need to explain "HOW" ......

So, do you want me to explain "why" now?

Thanks for the response. What about you Cowboy, how would you respond?

As I had stated, I had never met a Christian who did not believe that Jesus is God. I thought perhaps CB and Funches might be discussing the same issue but from a differing platform of belief whch is why I asked the question.

I had included a section of their discussion but I was not sure if any other posters were involved with it, so the question was posed as a 'general' one.

no "why" is not "now" ..."now" is on first ..."why" is on third ...."who" is at second.....besides I rather wait on Cowboy to attempt to explain the question I posed to him ...he is generally wrong but unlike you at least he tries to run to the bible to explain religion instead of running to the layman's dictionary

i would fall flat on my face and if i could speak i would give him praise

Explain yourself?

Jesus and I are one

I guess Cowboy can't "explain how" so I will explain what a prophecy is......a prophecy is what is referred to as the events that will take place in "God's Divine Plan" ....all events in this plan that has taken place or will take place has already be planned by God to take place .....

God's Divine Plan is like the gears within a watch that God himself has constructed ...in order for "the watch of God" to reach the time of 1am..it would be impossible for any of the gears within the watch to have "free Will" to accomplish this, they have "no choice" but to function in the way that God has programmed them to function in order to full fill the prophecy of 1am .....

...so when it is said that God "GAVE" his only begotton son..it means that Jesus didn't have "Free Will" or any say so in the matter....

the insane part of God's Divine Plan" is that he will judge you for the exact things he himself forced you to do in order to full fill his prophecies

Very interesting and well explained point of view.

Is this a pesonal view that is included in your own values? In other words, do you take no responsibility for your own actions based on the fact that no matter what effect your actions have, it was the intended effect that must necessarily follow the action in order lead to the fulfillment of 'The Plan'.

Or is your view based on your own interpretation of scripture or of how others would interpret scripture?

I'm not going to go through 42 pages of whatever ...

I see a statement on this page about never meeting a Christian that didn't think Jesus was god ... and I think
"you have never really talked to many Christians seriously"

the trinity ... is a Catholic idea ... not all Christians are Catholic.

Nowhere in any biblical text does it say Jesus is God ....

I think you need some serious rethinking of your position and some honest study of the subject.

Now to the base question in the header....

If God was standing in front of me ....
I would ask him why so many mixed messages and if its really a him or a her or androgenous or hermafrodite?

then ask Who his god is?

the same logic would apply to anything and everything....that any happenstance no matter how small...has the power to change who you are ..it can change how you think....and it can cause you to perform an action that you normally wouldn't have ...

Totally understandable.



Your thought would be wrong however, I admit having grown up and lived most of my life in the center of the so-called Bible belt, my experience seems to have been limited.

Although, in my youth I had spent some time discussing religion with Jehovah’s witnesses, before their elders declared that socializing with me was anathema, they never really referred to themselves as Christians only as Jehovah witnesses.

You have to remember that was a LONG time ago and the Jehovah witnesses were very careful with how they phrased things as they feared retribution from other mainstream Christian religions, at least where I grew up.

Either way, I know you may have missed another post in which I defended my comment. I will reply to you as I did to the other poster.

I made no presumption, I stated a fact, I have never met a Christian who did not believe that Jesus is God and so I asked those involved in the conversation to answer - is Jesus God?

Obviously, as I am having difficulty following the logic being applied in the conversation, I must not be understanding the premise from which the conversation has evolved.

Questions are usually considered an appropriate way to end confusion. If you have taken offence, let me say that none was meant to be given.



Another poster addressed the same post, also by declaring that not all Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus. Asking questions can bring enlightenment and I have been doing some more research into Christian denominations that are Nontrinitarian.

So thanks to you both for redirecting me.



But isn’t that what has created the division of Christianity into denominations – ‘interpretation’. For obviously there are vastly more Christian denominations (apart from Catholocism) that believe in the divinity of Jesus than denominations that do not.

It’s a matter of interpretation, is it not?



It’s not a matter of “rethinking my position” rather it’s a matter of broadening my horizons as my position is taken from the point of view of an atheist interested in understanding all the various components and elements of the theological.

However, as I said, thanks to the responses my post brought out, I am attempting to add new knowledge of the nontrinitarian denominations.

What I have found to begin with is a list of some nontrinitarian denominations through which to continue more in depth research:

List of major non-Trinitarian churches
*Christadelphians
*Christian Science
*Jehovah’s Witnesses
*Mormonism/Restorationism - there are over thirty Mormon sects, the majority of which adhere to a non-*Trinitarian theology (The Community of Christ does not)
*The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (biggest, best known Mormon group)
*Arian Catholicism
*Unitarianism
*Nontrinitarianism
*Oneness Pentecostals
*United Church of God


If you can think of any others that I should do more research on, please feel free to add to the list.

Referring to your responce to the OP "If God was standing in front of me..."


Do you then believe that God is a physical being? Would that not limit the power and capabilities of God?

The other question you would pose to God, "Who are you?" seems to indicate that God is one among others and you seek clarification of which one of the gods you are standing in from of.

Is that really the question you mean to ask?

I honestly don't see how you can say that. You talk about some honest study, but here it is right here:


John 10:

[24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.
[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
[32] Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
[35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
[37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


It seems to be that as long as the Christians demand that God is a jealous egotistical Zeus-like Godhead, they have no choice but to believe that Jesus claimed to be God. Unless they want to reject the Gospel of John, because Jesus clearly states here, "I and my Father are one"

The only other interpretation that I can see here is to realize that Jesus was speaking from a pantheistic point of view. I personally do feel that this is what he was attempting to do because he also suggests "Ye are gods" which makes sense only from a pantheistic point of view. He also said, "the Father is in me, and I in him" which again is the pantheistic view.

However, the Chrsitains can't go that route without losing their Zeus-like judgemental Godhead.

So Christians really have no choice but to recognize that, according to their doctrine, Jesus did indeed claim to be one and the same as God. As long as Christians demand that God is a completely sepearate entity from all mortal men, then Jesus could have only been claiming to be that separate Godhead here. Nothing else works.

also notice "[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me"

The verse you were pointing out specifically says "the father and I are one" does NOT say I am the father. The father and I can have multiple meanings.

They are one as in same goals and are working as one.
They are one, as in related, they are one family.

And so on. Can mean multiple things. Guess we'll never know what he ment by that till we pass away on this earth and you can ask him face to face.

Yes, but doesn't this type of "explanation" just fly in the very face of the idea of these scriptures are meaningful and/or can be trusted?

I mean, here you are suggesting that these words can have a whole host of meanings, all of which is anyone's guess. And the only way we'll ever get any clarification is after we die so we can ask God just what the hell he was trying to say in his so-called "Holy Book"?

What sense does that even make?

A doctrine that is supposed to be the "instructions" from God that no two people (not even highly religiously devout people) can even agree on what it says.

As far as I'm concerned such an ambiguous doctrine is already displaying extreme red flags that are shouting out "This doctrine is so ambiguous and confusing it can't possibly be the word of any all-wise God!"

If we have to wait until we die to ask God what the hell he was trying to say that doesn't say much for his book now does it?

In John 14:6 the passage reads: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Many other passages of John are undeniably ambiguous which causes quite a conundrum.

First, if Jesus said he is God or led others to believe that he is God then Jesus lied because according to Torah,from which the Old Testament was taken, for Jesus to have been the fulfillment of prophecy he must be a great human prophet, no divinity attached.

Of course there are much deeper issues, according to the Torah, as to why God could never be a physical being but we'll leave that for now.

Secondly, for any Christian who takes the Ten commanments seriously, there is a problem with what John has to report.



If Jesus is not God (and he can't be according to Old Testament)then how can John 14:6 be true?
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

NOTHING is EVER to come between God and his people. Those who pray to God through Jesus, those who worship Jesus as their source of salvation - are idolters.

Jesus could not have fulfilled Torah or Old Testament prophecy because he targeted gentiles and failed to deliver those that prophecy said he would save.

Jesus could not have been God, every Jew understood that, because the essence of God does not mutate - the essense of God is not bound to the physical, nor can it be.

So if Jesus did not proclaim to be God, but did proclaim that the only way to God was through himself, then he created, of himself, a false idol.

Either way, this whole conundrum stands to invalidate the New Testament and all of Christianity whose belief encompasses the New Testament. For if nothing about Jesus is accurate and Jesus was propegating false idolotry, then what purpose is there to the New Testament?

Sorry i did not see the question. A prophecy is:

"knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine source)
# a prediction uttered under divine inspiration"
---------------------------------------------------

And so what you tried to say about it taking away anyone's free will is way out in left field, has nothing to do with that. Again, a prophecy is only a foretold story of what will happen. For instance, my prophecy could be that the sun will go down tonight about 8 pm and rise tomorrow about 5:45am.

Or even more on a personal level, I prophesy that you will use the restroom today. Am I taking away your free will? No, a prophecy is a foretold event ahead of time before it happens.