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| Topic: Recovery from religion... | |
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Yes Man wrote the Bible, and that's EXACTLY why it's not the word of God. Yes, cause that's the simpleton logic. Prove God wrote the damn thing then. Show me ABSOLUTE proof God wrote the Bible. I'm thinking I'll be waiting a damn long time for that cause you can't. You've changed man, I'm disheartened to see the stance you have taken. I don't know what got into your head, but logic and good sense is alluding you now. LOL I never said He did. Your stance on this is totally perplexing. You just don't see your own hypocrisy its whats actually hilarious right now. My logic is/has been here. Good sense, if that's what you're using glad I don't have it. *shrug* Think what you want, but putting words into my mouth does not show your "exceeding" intelligence. |
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If you call love FORCING someone to do something on penalty of death, you need to re-familiarize yourself with the definition of the word. That is flat abuse! If any parent did that to their kids they'd lose custody of them in a hurry and rightly so, yet for God it's somehow ok? God gets a pass! BULL! It's truly sad, we expect less of God than we do of ourselves. Still don't get it.. "penalty of death" doesn't exist! You Are ALREADY DEAD! Geezus man. You speak of common sense but you have NONE. He has no influence upon you until AFTER DEATH! And no, parent would be prosecuted for it, because no "court" can see "spirit justice" ..man, I can't even grasp your knowledge on this. |
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I'm really glad you said this, because the Bible itself proves you totally wrong. First off it states obviously that God is love right? Ok, well then what is the Biblical definition of love? We find out in 1st Corinthians 13:4-8 It reads: "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" Now, in order for God to be love, and given there is a Biblical definition of what love is it stands to reason God would have to fulfill all those things to be love right? Well let's see if He does by looking at a few qualities here..... Love is not jealous: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." —Deuteronomy 4:24 MISQUOTED Love is not provoked: They have roused my jealousy by worshiping things that are not God; they have provoked my anger with their useless idols. Now I will rouse their jealousy through people who are not even a people; I will provoke their anger through the foolish Gentiles. Deutronomy 32:21 MISQUOTED Love is kind: "When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God. " 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 MISQUOTED And perhaps the most important one of all........love never fails. Let me repeat that love NEVER fails. Therefore, if God is love and love can't fail, if even one person is not saved, God fails. So this is a HUGE fail. THAT PERSON CHOSE NOT TO BE SAVED So the only conclusion one can draw if you compare the Biblical God to its' very own definition of what love is, is that this God ISN'T, because it fails to meet any of the criteria laid out for what love is. IT MEETS ALL YOU MISQUOTE, SUCH WILL BE ALL YOU SEE. You are being the person who tells the mute to tell the deaf guy that his wife is blind. |
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I do not agree with organized Religion because people tell you what to think and do. I do believe God exist because the Universe is simply to complex to have happened by accident. I do believe in evolution, but I can not get past the big bang happening for no apparent reason. Something never comes from nothing. For any chemical reaction you have to combine at least one element with another of a different kind or have an element over a period of time to excite a reaction because of decay. I can not prove it scientifically because of limited knowledge and experience in this study. My belief that God initiated the big bang is based off faith. It is a possible solution to why and how it happened. For if God is are creator by bringing together the elements to initiate the Big Bang, how magnificent is God to have created all of this! My life and your life were not an accident. Each morning is a miracle, because anything can happen to anyone at any time and any place. That is a great question, which I do not definitely know. Something had to continually exist with out a definable beginning and end. An example of this is a circle. So there is an existence of a system that is defined has having this infinite characteristic. Since it is possible, their could be an indescribable force that was before the big bang and will be after the Universe is no more. This force is often referred to as God. DNA. I bet you we are just a small genetic strand in a larger being. That's why the universe is so large. That's why we believe the "Big Bang" created everything. Molecules in something far larger than ourselves. |
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I'm really glad you said this, because the Bible itself proves you totally wrong. First off it states obviously that God is love right? Ok, well then what is the Biblical definition of love? We find out in 1st Corinthians 13:4-8 It reads: "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" Now, in order for God to be love, and given there is a Biblical definition of what love is it stands to reason God would have to fulfill all those things to be love right? Well let's see if He does by looking at a few qualities here..... Love is not jealous: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." —Deuteronomy 4:24 MISQUOTED Love is not provoked: They have roused my jealousy by worshiping things that are not God; they have provoked my anger with their useless idols. Now I will rouse their jealousy through people who are not even a people; I will provoke their anger through the foolish Gentiles. Deutronomy 32:21 MISQUOTED Love is kind: "When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God. " 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 MISQUOTED And perhaps the most important one of all........love never fails. Let me repeat that love NEVER fails. Therefore, if God is love and love can't fail, if even one person is not saved, God fails. So this is a HUGE fail. THAT PERSON CHOSE NOT TO BE SAVED So the only conclusion one can draw if you compare the Biblical God to its' very own definition of what love is, is that this God ISN'T, because it fails to meet any of the criteria laid out for what love is. IT MEETS ALL YOU MISQUOTE, SUCH WILL BE ALL YOU SEE. You are being the person who tells the mute to tell the deaf guy that his wife is blind. Of course, anything that goes against your point of view you deny. I am not surprised in the least. No the Bible CAN'T say what it actually does can it? Course not. I pity you I really do. |
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I for one am thankful I was brought up in my religion and I love Jesus. I recieve so much comfort from knowing God truly does exist and find it quite sad that others don't get that same comfort. Yes it is sad. However I find it sadder that so many have grown to fear God or fear damnation or hell, when there is nothing we should fear at all. Religion encourages such ideas, which is why it can be so harmful. I experienced the fear, so I'd know. I have no such fears now, because I know I am and always was loved. I'd wish that knowledge and peace on everyone. Yes God is real, very real, but God is far from what we are generally told it to be, and much more loving. We have been through this before on another thread. Unlike you I don't want to take the time to debate. Personally I think fearing going to Hell is a very good thing. There you go! I'm done. Then you condone spiritual rape, because holding ones feet to the fire and saying in effect believe or burn is not a damn bit different from a rapist telling their victim to suck him or be hurt. I feel pity and sadness for you that you would wish such fear on people. You feel pity all you wish, but who you having pity on? What you have said here does not apply to Christianity. First one would have to believe before "burning, or anything else" would have an effect on them. We don't believe out of fear, that doesn't work. You can not scare someone into truly believing in something. They may say they do, to get you off their back. But you can't truly scare someone into believing. Keep denying, you're still completely wrong. |
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. this is a logical point of view from the perspective of life that is singular and of the highest priority the logical point of view from the perspective of christians like myself though, is that there is EVERLASTING life, so the loss of the mortal life is not the worst thing the CREATOR of life can do as the CREATOR controls what life is in the first place and can give everlasting life after our flesh has expired,,, Yes, but why would God let ANYONE perish if it knows what is good for them? If you had a child who did something really wrong, would you punish them eternally for it or just for a while till they learn? If we know it's wrong, so does God. That simple. that presumes Gods knowledge is dependent upon ours, which is backwards to what christians like me believe death of the mortal flesh is a given to deliver from the spiritual sickness of sin eternal life is ours for the asking if we wish to live beyond the years of our mortal flesh DEATH is a GIVEN,,,the body expiring is a GIVEN not a punishment But eternal death is different. Put it this way, if God can save us from something that it KNOWS we don't want, even if we choose it, and having the capacity to do that doesn't take us from it, it is a bad God and a bad parent. No good parent worth their salt would allow their child to make a bad choice if he/she could stop them from doing it, and you know that. So if WE know that and as best we could with our limited abilities as humans would do all we could to protect our kids from harm, you don't think God being infinitely bigger and unlimited compared to we would do the same thing? It makes no sense. Firstly, as I said above any God that had the ability to save everyone (which we don't have), and chose not to do it, even knowing we wouldn't want the other choice is a failure as a God and as a parent, and further if this God somehow COULDN'T save everyone, well then it's not a God at all. I dont think you have children..lol no offense protecting our kids from harm doesnt mean making their decision for them,, we can talk to them and advise them best we can, but their decision is still THEIRS to make my father in heaven is no worse a parent for trying to counsel and be there but still allowing me to make my own decision,,, I don't, but here's my point. We can't make our decisions for them as parents here, you are right, we are limited in our abilities. But God ISN'T. God has all this ability, all this power, and yet it doesn't use it. What does he have it for then? I refuse to accept that a God who is on a higher plane than I am, would fail on that scale. God should be BETTER than we are, not worse or the same. Anything less isn't acceptable. AGAIN< this point of view seems to demand that God be there as 'service' to HUMANS not a view I share,,, If God is supposed to be love, the actions should back it up. And a God that would let anyone be killed or tortured for all eternity, even when it doesn't have to happen is not a loving God, to say nothing of demanding worship and praise like a damn egomaniac. That isn't love either. ok. I Think God is perfect, and just, and I am grateful for the everlasting life offered through Christ. Course you do, it's all you allow yourself to see, you won't open yourself to the idea that this being may not be what you think, because it clashes with the image you have of it. People do that all the time, staying with what they know out of comfort, instead of actually looking at other ideas that would change them and their world. Oh and remember this, I may have said it before, but I'll say it again now. WHO are we being saved from? GOD! If God is supposed to be love, why would we need to be saved from it??? Love would not harm, kill, torture, or demand ANYTHING. The Bible God fails on all counts! So you're going to tell me that God is love, and yet in the same breath tell me that without Christ's sacrifice we wouldn't be loved anymore and sentenced to total death?? The idea of a loving being acting in such way is insulting, and totally contradictory to what love is supposed to be. Ergo, God would not do it. Im sorry, but as a parent, the 'because I want it' just loses its appeal after a while God did not make it EASY for us. That does not mean he is not love. I'm really glad you said this, because the Bible itself proves you totally wrong. First off it states obviously that God is love right? Ok, well then what is the Biblical definition of love? We find out in 1st Corinthians 13:4-8 It reads: "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" Now, in order for God to be love, and given there is a Biblical definition of what love is it stands to reason God would have to fulfill all those things to be love right? Well let's see if He does by looking at a few qualities here..... Love is not jealous: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." —Deuteronomy 4:24 FAIL Love is not provoked: They have roused my jealousy by worshiping things that are not God; they have provoked my anger with their useless idols. Now I will rouse their jealousy through people who are not even a people; I will provoke their anger through the foolish Gentiles. Deutronomy 32:21 FAIL Love is kind: "When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God. " 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 FAIL And perhaps the most important one of all........love never fails. Let me repeat that love NEVER fails. Therefore, if God is love and love can't fail, if even one person is not saved, God fails. So this is a HUGE fail. So the only conclusion one can draw if you compare the Biblical God to its' very own definition of what love is, is that this God ISN'T, because it fails to meet any of the criteria laid out for what love is. All I can suggest is that you get a concordance and actually review the hebrew used in these passages you may find it interesting to note that even in ancient hebrew, there were words that were similar but not identical in meaning and words that changed in context the hebrew words translated simply in english to 'jealous' also have several different contexts throughout the bible and actually arent even the same hebrew word, although they are all translated with the same english word.... there is also the complex issue of love in general, I love people although their actions sometimes anger or dissapoint me,, neither of those things change my LOVE for them though,,,, its just not simple to understand until you understand it,,, but in any case wishing you a speedy recovery, but I need some rest Two things, number one, if God is so perfect and wants us all saved, WHY THE HELL DO I NEED A CONCORDANCE TO PROPERLY UNDERSTAND IT??? Is God that stupid or evil to make it PURPOSEFULLY confusing?? I don't think so! Would you make the truth confusing to your kid, or would you tell them straight up? The answer should be obvious. If God wants us to know something, it will spell it out in no uncertain terms, no jumping through hoops needed, otherwise it's not God. Number two, on understanding, this is the other thing about your religion. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone tries to argue against the Bible, WITHOUT FAIL, it always falls back on the arguer. NEVER is it that maybe the Bible is wrong, NEVER EVER. If you can't see how that would deflect any criticism away from it, you're plain blind. You CANNOT have an open debate about the validity of something, if you HAVE to come to one conclusion above all others before you even begin. It does not work! Plain fact is, IF the Bible were true, it could stand up to any arguments against it, and that this tactic has to be used against them says it cannot. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Sun 03/25/12 05:08 PM
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. this is a logical point of view from the perspective of life that is singular and of the highest priority the logical point of view from the perspective of christians like myself though, is that there is EVERLASTING life, so the loss of the mortal life is not the worst thing the CREATOR of life can do as the CREATOR controls what life is in the first place and can give everlasting life after our flesh has expired,,, Yes, but why would God let ANYONE perish if it knows what is good for them? If you had a child who did something really wrong, would you punish them eternally for it or just for a while till they learn? If we know it's wrong, so does God. That simple. that presumes Gods knowledge is dependent upon ours, which is backwards to what christians like me believe death of the mortal flesh is a given to deliver from the spiritual sickness of sin eternal life is ours for the asking if we wish to live beyond the years of our mortal flesh DEATH is a GIVEN,,,the body expiring is a GIVEN not a punishment But eternal death is different. Put it this way, if God can save us from something that it KNOWS we don't want, even if we choose it, and having the capacity to do that doesn't take us from it, it is a bad God and a bad parent. No good parent worth their salt would allow their child to make a bad choice if he/she could stop them from doing it, and you know that. So if WE know that and as best we could with our limited abilities as humans would do all we could to protect our kids from harm, you don't think God being infinitely bigger and unlimited compared to we would do the same thing? It makes no sense. Firstly, as I said above any God that had the ability to save everyone (which we don't have), and chose not to do it, even knowing we wouldn't want the other choice is a failure as a God and as a parent, and further if this God somehow COULDN'T save everyone, well then it's not a God at all. I dont think you have children..lol no offense protecting our kids from harm doesnt mean making their decision for them,, we can talk to them and advise them best we can, but their decision is still THEIRS to make my father in heaven is no worse a parent for trying to counsel and be there but still allowing me to make my own decision,,, I don't, but here's my point. We can't make our decisions for them as parents here, you are right, we are limited in our abilities. But God ISN'T. God has all this ability, all this power, and yet it doesn't use it. What does he have it for then? I refuse to accept that a God who is on a higher plane than I am, would fail on that scale. God should be BETTER than we are, not worse or the same. Anything less isn't acceptable. AGAIN< this point of view seems to demand that God be there as 'service' to HUMANS not a view I share,,, If God is supposed to be love, the actions should back it up. And a God that would let anyone be killed or tortured for all eternity, even when it doesn't have to happen is not a loving God, to say nothing of demanding worship and praise like a damn egomaniac. That isn't love either. ok. I Think God is perfect, and just, and I am grateful for the everlasting life offered through Christ. Course you do, it's all you allow yourself to see, you won't open yourself to the idea that this being may not be what you think, because it clashes with the image you have of it. People do that all the time, staying with what they know out of comfort, instead of actually looking at other ideas that would change them and their world. Oh and remember this, I may have said it before, but I'll say it again now. WHO are we being saved from? GOD! If God is supposed to be love, why would we need to be saved from it??? Love would not harm, kill, torture, or demand ANYTHING. The Bible God fails on all counts! So you're going to tell me that God is love, and yet in the same breath tell me that without Christ's sacrifice we wouldn't be loved anymore and sentenced to total death?? The idea of a loving being acting in such way is insulting, and totally contradictory to what love is supposed to be. Ergo, God would not do it. Im sorry, but as a parent, the 'because I want it' just loses its appeal after a while God did not make it EASY for us. That does not mean he is not love. I'm really glad you said this, because the Bible itself proves you totally wrong. First off it states obviously that God is love right? Ok, well then what is the Biblical definition of love? We find out in 1st Corinthians 13:4-8 It reads: "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" Now, in order for God to be love, and given there is a Biblical definition of what love is it stands to reason God would have to fulfill all those things to be love right? Well let's see if He does by looking at a few qualities here..... Love is not jealous: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." —Deuteronomy 4:24 FAIL Love is not provoked: They have roused my jealousy by worshiping things that are not God; they have provoked my anger with their useless idols. Now I will rouse their jealousy through people who are not even a people; I will provoke their anger through the foolish Gentiles. Deutronomy 32:21 FAIL Love is kind: "When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God. " 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 FAIL And perhaps the most important one of all........love never fails. Let me repeat that love NEVER fails. Therefore, if God is love and love can't fail, if even one person is not saved, God fails. So this is a HUGE fail. So the only conclusion one can draw if you compare the Biblical God to its' very own definition of what love is, is that this God ISN'T, because it fails to meet any of the criteria laid out for what love is. All I can suggest is that you get a concordance and actually review the hebrew used in these passages you may find it interesting to note that even in ancient hebrew, there were words that were similar but not identical in meaning and words that changed in context the hebrew words translated simply in english to 'jealous' also have several different contexts throughout the bible and actually arent even the same hebrew word, although they are all translated with the same english word.... there is also the complex issue of love in general, I love people although their actions sometimes anger or dissapoint me,, neither of those things change my LOVE for them though,,,, its just not simple to understand until you understand it,,, but in any case wishing you a speedy recovery, but I need some rest Two things, number one, if God is so perfect and wants us all saved, WHY THE HELL DO I NEED A CONCORDANCE TO PROPERLY UNDERSTAND IT??? Is God that stupid or evil to make it PURPOSEFULLY confusing?? I don't think so! Would you make the truth confusing to your kid, or would you tell them straight up? The answer should be obvious. If God wants us to know something, it will spell it out in no uncertain terms, no jumping through hoops needed, otherwise it's not God. Number two, on understanding, this is the other thing about your religion. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone tries to argue against the Bible, WITHOUT FAIL, it always falls back on the arguer. NEVER is it that maybe the Bible is wrong, NEVER EVER. If you can't see how that would deflect any criticism away from it, you're plain blind. You CANNOT have an open debate about the validity of something, if you HAVE to come to one conclusion above all others before you even begin. It does not work! Plain fact is, IF the Bible were true, it could stand up to any arguments against it, and that this tactic has to be used against them says it cannot. we no longer speak the language of the bible, thats why you need an understanding of where the translations roots are I dont consider reading jumping through hoops, but I guess people have different levels of effort they are willing to put into things that are worth it to them to be clear maybe you are right maybe I am right maybe you are wrong maybe I am wrong maybe my moms not my mom maybe she is I strongly believe she is and would always argue from the perspective that she is and request proof to the contrary from anyone contesting that neither you or I would have an opinion unless we were viewing it in our own perspective as 'right' ,,thats the best I can do for all those upset about people having an opinion of 'right' |
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. this is a logical point of view from the perspective of life that is singular and of the highest priority the logical point of view from the perspective of christians like myself though, is that there is EVERLASTING life, so the loss of the mortal life is not the worst thing the CREATOR of life can do as the CREATOR controls what life is in the first place and can give everlasting life after our flesh has expired,,, Yes, but why would God let ANYONE perish if it knows what is good for them? If you had a child who did something really wrong, would you punish them eternally for it or just for a while till they learn? If we know it's wrong, so does God. That simple. that presumes Gods knowledge is dependent upon ours, which is backwards to what christians like me believe death of the mortal flesh is a given to deliver from the spiritual sickness of sin eternal life is ours for the asking if we wish to live beyond the years of our mortal flesh DEATH is a GIVEN,,,the body expiring is a GIVEN not a punishment But eternal death is different. Put it this way, if God can save us from something that it KNOWS we don't want, even if we choose it, and having the capacity to do that doesn't take us from it, it is a bad God and a bad parent. No good parent worth their salt would allow their child to make a bad choice if he/she could stop them from doing it, and you know that. So if WE know that and as best we could with our limited abilities as humans would do all we could to protect our kids from harm, you don't think God being infinitely bigger and unlimited compared to we would do the same thing? It makes no sense. Firstly, as I said above any God that had the ability to save everyone (which we don't have), and chose not to do it, even knowing we wouldn't want the other choice is a failure as a God and as a parent, and further if this God somehow COULDN'T save everyone, well then it's not a God at all. I dont think you have children..lol no offense protecting our kids from harm doesnt mean making their decision for them,, we can talk to them and advise them best we can, but their decision is still THEIRS to make my father in heaven is no worse a parent for trying to counsel and be there but still allowing me to make my own decision,,, I don't, but here's my point. We can't make our decisions for them as parents here, you are right, we are limited in our abilities. But God ISN'T. God has all this ability, all this power, and yet it doesn't use it. What does he have it for then? I refuse to accept that a God who is on a higher plane than I am, would fail on that scale. God should be BETTER than we are, not worse or the same. Anything less isn't acceptable. AGAIN< this point of view seems to demand that God be there as 'service' to HUMANS not a view I share,,, If God is supposed to be love, the actions should back it up. And a God that would let anyone be killed or tortured for all eternity, even when it doesn't have to happen is not a loving God, to say nothing of demanding worship and praise like a damn egomaniac. That isn't love either. ok. I Think God is perfect, and just, and I am grateful for the everlasting life offered through Christ. Course you do, it's all you allow yourself to see, you won't open yourself to the idea that this being may not be what you think, because it clashes with the image you have of it. People do that all the time, staying with what they know out of comfort, instead of actually looking at other ideas that would change them and their world. Oh and remember this, I may have said it before, but I'll say it again now. WHO are we being saved from? GOD! If God is supposed to be love, why would we need to be saved from it??? Love would not harm, kill, torture, or demand ANYTHING. The Bible God fails on all counts! So you're going to tell me that God is love, and yet in the same breath tell me that without Christ's sacrifice we wouldn't be loved anymore and sentenced to total death?? The idea of a loving being acting in such way is insulting, and totally contradictory to what love is supposed to be. Ergo, God would not do it. Im sorry, but as a parent, the 'because I want it' just loses its appeal after a while God did not make it EASY for us. That does not mean he is not love. I'm really glad you said this, because the Bible itself proves you totally wrong. First off it states obviously that God is love right? Ok, well then what is the Biblical definition of love? We find out in 1st Corinthians 13:4-8 It reads: "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" Now, in order for God to be love, and given there is a Biblical definition of what love is it stands to reason God would have to fulfill all those things to be love right? Well let's see if He does by looking at a few qualities here..... Love is not jealous: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." —Deuteronomy 4:24 FAIL Love is not provoked: They have roused my jealousy by worshiping things that are not God; they have provoked my anger with their useless idols. Now I will rouse their jealousy through people who are not even a people; I will provoke their anger through the foolish Gentiles. Deutronomy 32:21 FAIL Love is kind: "When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God. " 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 FAIL And perhaps the most important one of all........love never fails. Let me repeat that love NEVER fails. Therefore, if God is love and love can't fail, if even one person is not saved, God fails. So this is a HUGE fail. So the only conclusion one can draw if you compare the Biblical God to its' very own definition of what love is, is that this God ISN'T, because it fails to meet any of the criteria laid out for what love is. All I can suggest is that you get a concordance and actually review the hebrew used in these passages you may find it interesting to note that even in ancient hebrew, there were words that were similar but not identical in meaning and words that changed in context the hebrew words translated simply in english to 'jealous' also have several different contexts throughout the bible and actually arent even the same hebrew word, although they are all translated with the same english word.... there is also the complex issue of love in general, I love people although their actions sometimes anger or dissapoint me,, neither of those things change my LOVE for them though,,,, its just not simple to understand until you understand it,,, but in any case wishing you a speedy recovery, but I need some rest Two things, number one, if God is so perfect and wants us all saved, WHY THE HELL DO I NEED A CONCORDANCE TO PROPERLY UNDERSTAND IT??? Is God that stupid or evil to make it PURPOSEFULLY confusing?? I don't think so! Would you make the truth confusing to your kid, or would you tell them straight up? The answer should be obvious. If God wants us to know something, it will spell it out in no uncertain terms, no jumping through hoops needed, otherwise it's not God. Number two, on understanding, this is the other thing about your religion. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone tries to argue against the Bible, WITHOUT FAIL, it always falls back on the arguer. NEVER is it that maybe the Bible is wrong, NEVER EVER. If you can't see how that would deflect any criticism away from it, you're plain blind. You CANNOT have an open debate about the validity of something, if you HAVE to come to one conclusion above all others before you even begin. It does not work! Plain fact is, IF the Bible were true, it could stand up to any arguments against it, and that this tactic has to be used against them says it cannot. how can an opinion 'stand up'? its how we feel based upon our perspective and experience,,, the bible can be completely true and still not 'stand up' to those who are certain it isnt,,, and vice versa,,, |
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Edited by
MorningSong
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Sun 03/25/12 05:57 PM
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There are many different layers of understanding to The
Word of God. Yet God made the bible easy enough to understand , to where even a child could understand. God gives just enough understanding of His Word , in order that one may be lead to Christ. Bu the deeper meanings of God's Word is RESERVED for the Believers.....The Word of God is the children's daily BREAD.... and the Holy Spirit NOW living WITHIN the believer, is the ONE , WHO TEACHES ,LEADS ,and GUIDES the believer NOW into ALL TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD. But, For a person to try and decipher the deeper meaning of God's Word WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, is like trying to read with no eyes to see. One's spiritual eyes MUST be opened first( which happens when one is born again )....and THEN The WORD OF GOD becomes PERFECTLY CLEAR !!! But until then, God STILL gives enough understanding of God's Word, in order that one may be lead into the Saving knowledge of Jesus Christ . Again...God makes the basics of the bible easy enough to understand, to where even a child can understand.  |
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You're proving my point, if we all have to in the end worship God the same way to be saved, the relationship cannot be personal. Nothing you say will make it so, it still can't be. not all worship the same way, not all believe the same way and not all will be "saved" the same way every individual "dates" someone else so by ur words, none of these relationships are "personal"? or am i misunderstandin? My point is simply, if everyone is required to end up at the same place at the end of things, then they really can't have a personal relationship with God. Personal means it's something no one else can define but them. If I wanted to worship God through nature for example, I could, if wanted to pray to God using a particular name, I could. These are different ways to connect to God. If those ways are in effect not available, it cannot be personal because it would become more what God expects you to be, than what you wish to be. This is how religion works, it molds you into its' belief of what God wants, instead of letting you find God your own way on your own terms. It'd be like if you told your kids they could have a personal relationship with you, but they all had to play football. It doesn't work. Instead of figuring out what they like, what they desire out of life, what their goals and dreams are, you set the path out for them regardless of if they like or not. It becomes more about you and what you want for them than what they might want. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Religion makes it all about God, instead of about us. And any good parent worth their salt would take great care to allow their kids to make their own paths in life, to carve their own trail unique to them. If we know enough to do that, so does God. Hate to break it to you, but it is all about God and doing what God wants. It's not about us exactly in that sense. We don't obey God out of derest, or being forced. We obey God because we WANT to, because we are WILLING to obey. If one is not willing to obey, they by all means have that choice. But how then would they expect to get blessed in return? Why would God do your will, when you aren't doing his? You couldn't be more wrong. God is not a monster who will let you die if you don't live exactly right. No God is much more loving than that, thank goodness. Why wouldn't he allow you to continue to live? How would you ever ask for forgiveness and give your life over to God if he automatically judged you to death when you first commit a sin? Where's the compassion in that? There's no compassion in that either, the Biblical God is NOT AT ALL compassionate. The very idea that a loving God would need the blood of an innocent being to love people again after what other people did, is absurd! Love does not require death to be, period. Then on top of that, even after saying it's for all, if you do one thing wrong, you still die! Again NOT love. this is a logical point of view from the perspective of life that is singular and of the highest priority the logical point of view from the perspective of christians like myself though, is that there is EVERLASTING life, so the loss of the mortal life is not the worst thing the CREATOR of life can do as the CREATOR controls what life is in the first place and can give everlasting life after our flesh has expired,,, Yes, but why would God let ANYONE perish if it knows what is good for them? If you had a child who did something really wrong, would you punish them eternally for it or just for a while till they learn? If we know it's wrong, so does God. That simple. that presumes Gods knowledge is dependent upon ours, which is backwards to what christians like me believe death of the mortal flesh is a given to deliver from the spiritual sickness of sin eternal life is ours for the asking if we wish to live beyond the years of our mortal flesh DEATH is a GIVEN,,,the body expiring is a GIVEN not a punishment But eternal death is different. Put it this way, if God can save us from something that it KNOWS we don't want, even if we choose it, and having the capacity to do that doesn't take us from it, it is a bad God and a bad parent. No good parent worth their salt would allow their child to make a bad choice if he/she could stop them from doing it, and you know that. So if WE know that and as best we could with our limited abilities as humans would do all we could to protect our kids from harm, you don't think God being infinitely bigger and unlimited compared to we would do the same thing? It makes no sense. Firstly, as I said above any God that had the ability to save everyone (which we don't have), and chose not to do it, even knowing we wouldn't want the other choice is a failure as a God and as a parent, and further if this God somehow COULDN'T save everyone, well then it's not a God at all. I dont think you have children..lol no offense protecting our kids from harm doesnt mean making their decision for them,, we can talk to them and advise them best we can, but their decision is still THEIRS to make my father in heaven is no worse a parent for trying to counsel and be there but still allowing me to make my own decision,,, I don't, but here's my point. We can't make our decisions for them as parents here, you are right, we are limited in our abilities. But God ISN'T. God has all this ability, all this power, and yet it doesn't use it. What does he have it for then? I refuse to accept that a God who is on a higher plane than I am, would fail on that scale. God should be BETTER than we are, not worse or the same. Anything less isn't acceptable. AGAIN< this point of view seems to demand that God be there as 'service' to HUMANS not a view I share,,, If God is supposed to be love, the actions should back it up. And a God that would let anyone be killed or tortured for all eternity, even when it doesn't have to happen is not a loving God, to say nothing of demanding worship and praise like a damn egomaniac. That isn't love either. ok. I Think God is perfect, and just, and I am grateful for the everlasting life offered through Christ. Course you do, it's all you allow yourself to see, you won't open yourself to the idea that this being may not be what you think, because it clashes with the image you have of it. People do that all the time, staying with what they know out of comfort, instead of actually looking at other ideas that would change them and their world. Oh and remember this, I may have said it before, but I'll say it again now. WHO are we being saved from? GOD! If God is supposed to be love, why would we need to be saved from it??? Love would not harm, kill, torture, or demand ANYTHING. The Bible God fails on all counts! So you're going to tell me that God is love, and yet in the same breath tell me that without Christ's sacrifice we wouldn't be loved anymore and sentenced to total death?? The idea of a loving being acting in such way is insulting, and totally contradictory to what love is supposed to be. Ergo, God would not do it. Im sorry, but as a parent, the 'because I want it' just loses its appeal after a while God did not make it EASY for us. That does not mean he is not love. I'm really glad you said this, because the Bible itself proves you totally wrong. First off it states obviously that God is love right? Ok, well then what is the Biblical definition of love? We find out in 1st Corinthians 13:4-8 It reads: "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" Now, in order for God to be love, and given there is a Biblical definition of what love is it stands to reason God would have to fulfill all those things to be love right? Well let's see if He does by looking at a few qualities here..... Love is not jealous: For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God." —Deuteronomy 4:24 FAIL Love is not provoked: They have roused my jealousy by worshiping things that are not God; they have provoked my anger with their useless idols. Now I will rouse their jealousy through people who are not even a people; I will provoke their anger through the foolish Gentiles. Deutronomy 32:21 FAIL Love is kind: "When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God. " 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 FAIL And perhaps the most important one of all........love never fails. Let me repeat that love NEVER fails. Therefore, if God is love and love can't fail, if even one person is not saved, God fails. So this is a HUGE fail. So the only conclusion one can draw if you compare the Biblical God to its' very own definition of what love is, is that this God ISN'T, because it fails to meet any of the criteria laid out for what love is. All I can suggest is that you get a concordance and actually review the hebrew used in these passages you may find it interesting to note that even in ancient hebrew, there were words that were similar but not identical in meaning and words that changed in context the hebrew words translated simply in english to 'jealous' also have several different contexts throughout the bible and actually arent even the same hebrew word, although they are all translated with the same english word.... there is also the complex issue of love in general, I love people although their actions sometimes anger or dissapoint me,, neither of those things change my LOVE for them though,,,, its just not simple to understand until you understand it,,, but in any case wishing you a speedy recovery, but I need some rest Two things, number one, if God is so perfect and wants us all saved, WHY THE HELL DO I NEED A CONCORDANCE TO PROPERLY UNDERSTAND IT??? Is God that stupid or evil to make it PURPOSEFULLY confusing?? I don't think so! Would you make the truth confusing to your kid, or would you tell them straight up? The answer should be obvious. If God wants us to know something, it will spell it out in no uncertain terms, no jumping through hoops needed, otherwise it's not God. Number two, on understanding, this is the other thing about your religion. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone tries to argue against the Bible, WITHOUT FAIL, it always falls back on the arguer. NEVER is it that maybe the Bible is wrong, NEVER EVER. If you can't see how that would deflect any criticism away from it, you're plain blind. You CANNOT have an open debate about the validity of something, if you HAVE to come to one conclusion above all others before you even begin. It does not work! Plain fact is, IF the Bible were true, it could stand up to any arguments against it, and that this tactic has to be used against them says it cannot. how can an opinion 'stand up'? its how we feel based upon our perspective and experience,,, the bible can be completely true and still not 'stand up' to those who are certain it isnt,,, and vice versa,,, I have nothing to say- I just wanted to see how massive this quote quote thing can get... |
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so sad that this thread got so completely off-topic!!! It's completely on-topic: "It makes sense that this could be helpful for many people as religion has been allowed to run rampant and has been deceptively taught as the only answer to morality, problem solving, recovery, grieving, etc... And in truth it only makes a person sicker in the end. Makes their lives more empty. " You are doing what the OP did. You're associating "sick" actions with religion without knowing how everyone was taught, what they were taught, the quality of their existense and their mental capacity. i am not perfect. anyone who would disdain a topic such as this does not have to participate. Disdain is the reason I participate... I think moral elitism is a sickness. One which breeds the likes of an Adolf Hitler. Then explain why he sacked Catholic churches... I suppose you believe everything a murderer tells you too.  http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm Site takes long to load sometimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_views |
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Hitler twisted and perverted and misused and abused the gospel...
and came up with his own "version" and interpretation instead...and used it to deceive and mislead the people of germany.....he perverted the gospel for his own gain.... |
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I for one am thankful I was brought up in my religion and I love Jesus. I recieve so much comfort from knowing God truly does exist and find it quite sad that others don't get that same comfort. Yes it is sad. However I find it sadder that so many have grown to fear God or fear damnation or hell, when there is nothing we should fear at all. Religion encourages such ideas, which is why it can be so harmful. I experienced the fear, so I'd know. I have no such fears now, because I know I am and always was loved. I'd wish that knowledge and peace on everyone. Yes God is real, very real, but God is far from what we are generally told it to be, and much more loving. We have been through this before on another thread. Unlike you I don't want to take the time to debate. Personally I think fearing going to Hell is a very good thing. There you go! I'm done. Then you condone spiritual rape, because holding ones feet to the fire and saying in effect believe or burn is not a damn bit different from a rapist telling their victim to suck him or be hurt. I feel pity and sadness for you that you would wish such fear on people. You feel pity all you wish, but who you having pity on? What you have said here does not apply to Christianity. First one would have to believe before "burning, or anything else" would have an effect on them. We don't believe out of fear, that doesn't work. You can not scare someone into truly believing in something. They may say they do, to get you off their back. But you can't truly scare someone into believing. Keep denying, you're still completely wrong. I'm still completely wrong? Howso? Do you fear eternal death? No, because YOU DON'T BELIEVE. You have to first believe before anything can hold power over you. |
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There are many different layers of understanding to The Word of God. Yet God made the bible easy enough to understand , to where even a child could understand. God gives just enough understanding of His Word , in order that one may be lead to Christ. Bu the deeper meanings of God's Word is RESERVED for the Believers.....The Word of God is the children's daily BREAD.... and the Holy Spirit NOW living WITHIN the believer, is the ONE , WHO TEACHES ,LEADS ,and GUIDES the believer NOW into ALL TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD. But, For a person to try and decipher the deeper meaning of God's Word WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, is like trying to read with no eyes to see. One's spiritual eyes MUST be opened first( which happens when one is born again )....and THEN The WORD OF GOD becomes PERFECTLY CLEAR !!! But until then, God STILL gives enough understanding of God's Word, in order that one may be lead into the Saving knowledge of Jesus Christ . Again...God makes the basics of the bible easy enough to understand, to where even a child can understand. Exactly. |
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Ya know kleistos rants do make sense.Sometimes i wonder also.
1)where are the original gospels? 2)theres no evidence of any of the biblical characters,besides the bible. 3)why didn't Jesus write his own gospel? 4)The floods did cover the entire earth,but believers even discredit their own book by saying the floods didn't.Read some of the threads. |
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Matter of fact take away the abrahamic writings and even the egyptians don't mention anything about Moses.
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Ya know kleistos rants do make sense.Sometimes i wonder also. 1)where are the original gospels? 2)theres no evidence of any of the biblical characters,besides the bible. 3)why didn't Jesus write his own gospel? 4)The floods did cover the entire earth,but believers even discredit their own book by saying the floods didn't.Read some of the threads. 1. The original scriptures are in the Vatican Library. 2. - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2 - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3. - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9. - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2 3. Why would Jesus have to? 4. The flood did, it flooded the entire world. Who ever said it didn't? |
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Ya know kleistos rants do make sense.Sometimes i wonder also. 1)where are the original gospels? 2)theres no evidence of any of the biblical characters,besides the bible. 3)why didn't Jesus write his own gospel? 4)The floods did cover the entire earth,but believers even discredit their own book by saying the floods didn't.Read some of the threads. 1. The original scriptures are in the Vatican Library. 2. - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2 - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3. - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9. - Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2 3. Why would Jesus have to? 4. The flood did, it flooded the entire world. Who ever said it didn't? Decided to post more of these external accounts. - Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun. - Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112. - The Talmud Not saying these books are divinely inspired, as I do not personally know these books. |
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