What you seem to not understand is that IF there is a god, and IF it affects our world, then it has to play by the same rules. So saying if god doesn't need a beginning, or a creator, why does the universe?

I didn't give it an "all or nothing", but actually reading the bible is a contributing factor in my journey to atheism.
It was the realization that all the major religions are just a bunch of BS. (Plus it's a little hard to believe the "one true god" line when all these religions are fractured into little sub-religions.)
My love of Science also helped me down the road to atheism.
Both factors lead me to where I am now, without a need for any type of religion. Especially those that in one way or another try to control my life.

For example, without religion you have child molesters and child rapist going to jail. With religion, you have the Pope sheltering those molesters and rapists so they can avoid jail time, and keep their victim count rising.

1. As has already been mentioned, if something cannot come from nothing, then you need to explain where your god came from, and where that came from, and so on, and so on.

2. It's actually pretty simple. Science has evidence of all this different things happening naturally, so I see no need to invoke an invisible, magic sky-daddy for those things that aren't completely understood.

I have. That's why I'm an atheist.

Yet, you have to "just believe" in both..

As one of my favorite de-motivational posters says (paraphrased) "Remember everything you learned of jesus when you learn that Santa isn't real."

The definition of non-religious being used is someone who is Atheist, Agnostic, or non-religious. (yes, there are people who identify themselves as non-religious)

Unfortunately, Every link I'm finding is to a message board, with the original link long gone..

But the best post one I can find is: (originally posted on Pitzer College's site)

Actually, studies have shown that crime rates, abortion rates, and divorce rates are lower for the non-religious.

I too, am an Atheist with no belief in or of anything spiritual or supernatural. I fail to see any need for either.

I really feel sorry for you, as it's clear that without this security blanket of religion, you wouldn't be a very good person. Abra and myself have both brought up that we don't need your god (or a god) to be good, moral people.

And, yet your god is the one most guilty of it..
According to the Bible, God has killed 2,391,421 people. That isn't counting the number of times he slaughtered people and no number was given.

I'm Atheist because I've above worshiping a bloodthirsty hypocrite.

It also goes to show that there is little, if any, difference between the fundamentalists and extremists of the religions..

I'd be willing to wager, that as an atheist, I am more moral than a lot of the religious people. I don't kill people over who has the more peaceful imaginary friend. I don't steal, because stealing is a dick move. I don't kill people because I enjoy life. I also don't deny people rights that I enjoy simply because a book of fables tells me to.

I agree, luckily both times (that I'm aware of) that Creationism has tried to legally strong arm it's way into the Science classroom it has failed.

But, there are many, many more important battles ahead..

As I've said here before, there was a time where everything you mentioned was ok.. King wanted a son, got a daughter, a number of times, the child was killed. We have already evolved PAST the time when those were considered ok.

Of course, I would have expected you to jump right over the main point I was making there. HOMOSEXUALS ARE PEOPLE TOO AND AS SUCH SHOULD BE GRANTED THE EXACT SAME RIGHTS AS YOU AND I. I hope that isn't too subtle.





Please tell me you really don't understand how changing the subject changes everything.

I'm still waiting for that non-religious reason, how about you try to do something different, and think of one on your own?

The words that your replaced were the subject, which does change everything quite a bit. Like I said, earlier, I even gave you the exact place in the bible where it is listed.. It's very telling that you don't know the book you claim to live by.



Well, we agree that morals to not come from religion, but religion time and time again claims that they have the moral high ground, and time and time again that is proven to be false.
Again with the Commandments, seems silly, to me, for a supposedly supreme being to have a list of 10 things we can't do, where only 2 of them are actual laws, and most are just re-wordings of other commandments.




Doing something out of fear is not the same as doing something because you feel like it.



It is not intellectually dishonest. "Do this, or be cast into the fire of hell forever" IS Coercion. Not only is it coercion, it's manipulation. All you need is the threat of danger, whether that danger is real, or imaginary, to get people to do what you want.



The problem is that MANY believers have mentioned that the only reason they are good is because of the threat of hell.




Last time I checked, Homosexuals are people, just like you and me. Therefore they should be granted the SAME rights that you and me enjoy. Now, whether you like it or not the "conditions" given to marriage are from religion. Again, there is obviously an evolutionary benefit to homosexuality since it occurs in nature.

It does not take the ability to read minds when people actually SAY these things to someone.. So Nice assumption that I made an assumption. You are wrong.



There was a time in human history when incest was accepted (many families in Ancient Rome "kept it in the family" because they started viewing everyone else as unclean.

Science tells us that within a few generations, of incest the child is going to have a whole list of problems, and survival will be difficult.



Because the reason you gave IS listed in the Bible. I even gave you the EXACT place you can find it in the bible.
Honestly, I fail to see how it's a leap of logic on my part, when you are the one denying rights to an entire group of people, because of what bronze age goat herders.
the dark ages is ONE brief period within the existence of mankind and that is the best example one can come up with while trying to discredit ALL of religion?




Because we don't get our morals from religion. I've listed a number of things that the bible tell us is good and moral, you have chosen to ignore each of those example.


[qoute]'good' and 'bad' people have and always will be around, its human nature if someone helps the homeless because they think a fairy will visit them or because they think they will become homeless if they dont or because they have been homeless before,,I really wouldnt care so long as they were helping

If they are helping the homeless because of a fairy, or because of the threat of hell, it really isn't good. Doing something out of fear of punishment is coercion. As I've said before there are many examples of religious people, who are considered good, doing really evil things, and for that to happen it takes religion.



Please, provide the quote.



So, if a person's beliefs should be kept to themselves, why ban gay marriage based solely on religious grounds? That is forcing your beliefs on others, is it not?

So, you're "Non-religious" argument against gay marriage/homosexuality is that it is immoral...

Well congrats..you just gave me the Christian/biblical reasoning for not allowing it. Way to read the bible.. It's 1 Corinthians6:9;10, in case you were wondering.



Theists with Bronze age beliefs haven't evolved to allow people to live without forcing their beliefs on others.
Humanists like myself have evolved to the point where we don't need a book to tell us what is good or bad, and to be able to grant everybody an equal set of rights.

Ultimately, since Homosexuality occurs in nature, your attempted point fails. There is some evolutionary benefit to homosexuality, since it does occur in nature.




Well than congrats. Because I have, a number of your "brothers and sisters in christ" would kill me, without second thought, if it wasn't in the 10 commandments that "thou shall not kill" Luckily for me they haven't got to the part about killing the heathen yet.





1 Kings 7:23 (KJV) And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Math tells us that Pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle. 1 Kings 23 gives us the equation 30/10, which equals 3. So, again, why to know your bible.



So, God is Richard Nixon, and I can't understand because I chose rationality of bronze age myths?
So, would you say that a tyrant locking away murders while killing thousands of his own people is a bad thing? I do, all it does is make the tyrant a hypocrite, and hypocrites don't deserve any form of worship.




We used to have something like that.. It was called the Dark Ages... Thankfully for us, Science overcame it.



Take a closer look. It is Religion's cup that is empty. Science got us to the moon. Religion flew planes into buildings.

Yeah, it's called a Holy War
Really? I'm still waiting for that Republican to kill the Democrat for being a democrat.



Yet, God himself goes on to kill (literally) countless people. Real loving guy, that hypocrite.
10 Commandments, 2 are actual laws(the not killing, the not stealing) No mention of rape, which I would say is pretty bad. There are a number of laws, that are in place for good reasons, that have no mention in the buy bull, or any other holy book.



Because Human Morals have evolved to a point where we don't view incest or possible Adult relationships with minors as a good thing. Not to mention how incest ****s up future generations...

By the way, that non-religious argument against gay marriage? Still waiting for it.



Really? So selling your daughter to slavery is a good thing, because it's in the bible? Offering your daughter for rape is good? Killing her as a sacrifice is good?



Not really. The 9/11 hijackers viewed themselves as good people, killing innocent people seems pretty evil to me. Priests view themselves as good people.. yet they **** little kids, again, not really in my view of good.



I don't care about who gives it the pedestal, it still is undeserved. Religion preaches ignorance, and segregation, as well as not being true to oneself. I fail to see anything deserving in that.



You trust the buy bull, I'll continue to trust the people in lab coats who don't make me get up early on Sunday (or whatever your chosen "holy" day is) and apologize for being human.




Yes it does. Especially, when those believers admit that the only thing stopping them from doing evil things is the threat of hell..
I can be good for the sake of being good..



There are a number of things wrong in this section. First Religion itself is immoral, studies have been done, when the stories are taken out of the bible as is, people call them moral, when they change the names and "update" them, people call the actions of the "good" guys immoral. That is a pretty big blow.
Second, Agnostic is an adjective, and not a stance.. "Atheism"= Without (a) Belief(theism) Agnosticism= Without (a) Knowledge (gnosticism) One can be an Agnostic Theism (an unknowing believer), a Gnostic Theist(Knowing Believer), an Agnostic Atheist (Unknowing disbeliever), and a Gnostic Atheist(Knowing Believer)




Let see, just off the top of my head there is: the Flat Earth (Kuran, iirc) Geocentric solar system, Pi(the bible, in a round about way states that Pi=3)Evolution, the Age of the Earth...

Yet, the easiest way to draw a line, or even kill people is to kill people who don't believe as you do.. All the "holy" books have at least once passage instructing the death of non-believers.

Of course, if you actually look at the ACTUAL morality found in the holy books you will find a morality much different from today.. it changes over time, and like everything else in Christianity, it stole it from something else and "made" it it's own.



All the more reason to not believe something that is only in a book.



Ok then, give me a NON-religious argument against Gay Marriage, I won't hold my breath.



To quote Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, you have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, that takes takes religion."



My problem with religion is that it is given a pedestal that it does not deserve. It cannot be questioned, like a play or a call in a sporting event.. It should be. It teaches people to be ignorant. It claims to have the moral high ground, where outside of Chicago Politics, nothing is more corrupt.. It is the last socially acceptable segregation. It is arrogant, claiming to have the answers that Science doesn't, even after Science (and Mathematics) have proven it to be wrong time and time again.