I have done the first verse for you.I am not going to waste time with the other hundreds.


Malachi 1:2-3 Old testament

Israel Doubts God’s Love
2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Jesus said:

Romans 9:13

3As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Leviticus 20:10 is talking about a Old testament law.Jesus died for that sin and all sins.We can not be put to death for a sin already paid for by Jesus.It is null and void.However committing adultery is still a sin and a very serious sin as it is a commandment.

There is no where in the bible that says people can not be married again after committing adultery.If someone confesses to God that they committed adultery and repents of their sins and asks for forgiveness are we supposed to deny them that privilege?Of course not.If God forgives them then we will also.

However if this person is a unrepentant adulterer,and will not repent,I don't think any church would marry this person or would associate with this person.


I would not want to be part of a church with unrepentant sinners including homosexuals.I honestly don't see why homosexuals get a free pass with their unrepentant lifestyle.The church would never tolerate a priest if he was a drunk or was seen coming out of strip clubs.You hear of these stories of priests getting caught with a prostitute and they are banned from ever sitting foot in their church again.They are fired and kicked out forever.

Yet homosexuals are just fine.Never mind the fact that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was the only city that upset God so much he used fire to destroy it.Never mind the fact that homosexuality is mentioned in both the Old testament and New testament as wrong.

I do feel sorry for those churches who call homosexuality good.They are playing a dangerous game.They will be never be forgiven of that unforgivable sin Jesus spoke of in this life or the next one.Such a terrible price to pay.

LOL! How covertly dishonest this post is...

Bolded words show what you omitted from your paraphrased quotes.

Matthew 19:7-9
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.




Matthew 5:32

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

when it comes to religion "Free Will" equates to being threaten and out of fear those that believe the threat seek salvation from the one that threaten them

once a threat is introduce such as burning in "Hell for all eternity" for not believing in God it takes away "Free Will" because burning in Hell becomes an incentive to make the choice to believe in God due to a preceived fear or delusion of an impending doom from God

one can not believe in Prophecy or believe that God has a Divine Plan and then claim to believe in "Free Will" because by doing so it takes alway their God's omniscience and proves that it's not a God

Christians like to believe that "Free WIll" is something special that God gave them but they fail to realize that when it comes to "Free Will" even a wombat has it ...but would a wombat seek salvation and submit to a preceive threat or would it flee or fight

this is why it is the fear of death that someone would choose to believe in and seek salvation from a God

No, of course you won't, because most of them aren't even quotes of Jesus.

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew isn't even attempting to claim that Jesus said this. I looked up some others too which were basically the same type of narrative writings.

So there, I did one for you.

I'll leave it up to you to correct the rest of your false claims.

Besides, it's actually a false claim to claim that Jesus is 'quoted' in the Bible anyway. Clearly these men could put whatever words they want in the dead Jesus' mouth. They were using him as a dead marionette doll to make a case for their own beliefs and rumors.

So once again, it's not impressive at all.

Jesus isn't even in the Bible actually.

No, it's not out of fear. There is very minimal reference of what it will be like in hell. We worship out of love to uplift the glory of our father. It's not out of duress or anything, it's out of love. With our father our side, what is there to fear?

How could the father be on "your" side? Is God at war with someone?

If so, why does your father feel so threatened that he feels he has to 'take sides'?

Cowboy...exactly how much reference is needed beyond being burn in Hell for all eternity ...that's kind of to the point ..it wouldn't need that much room in the bible to explain



is the glory of God so weak that it need to be uplifted by the creations? you make God sound depress



perhaps the love of keeping your apse from burning in Hell



well let's ask Jesus (Luke 12:4-5) what is there to fear with God on your side



and this is why there is no "Free Will" because God makes threats

This is just a general reminder

Limiting free will requires force. Unless a Christian is preventing someone from hearing about other beliefs, they are not limiting free will, just offering what they believe to be the correct choice.



The law (the commandments) and our conscience bring us to believe that we are sinful and need to be saved from the consequences of our own actions. Without the law written in the Bible and in our hearts, we wouldn't see the need for salvation. No matter how serious a danger is, if it isn't believed, it won't change behavior.



God's standard is perfection. Nobody can live a completely morally perfect life by the standard laid out in the Bible. As you said yourself, Christians believe in salvation through Grace (undeserved favor).



The purpose is to lead us to the conclusion that we need salvation from our sins. The purpose is to guide us in how we should treat God, others and ourselves.



I'm not a stupid person. I'm fairly logical and rational, I'm a fairly good computer programmer. A person who was illogical couldn't write a complicated computer program. When I first thought about going into the field of computer programming, I was asked "How do you put a puzzle together"? I was told that People who would make good computer programmers always have a method and plan for putting puzzles together. My life is orderly, I plan out and research large purchases to be sure that I don't make a mistake. I think that I can speak better than you or anyone else who has never met me on if I am a logical or rational person. I am. That said, I find the Christian Theology to make sense. Given the evidence of the world and the natural law, it makes sense to me.

Your post contained frequent mistakes in your logic and false assumptions about Christianity. I'm sure this is from bad experiences with Christians or Christianity and I think that is a pity. I would hope that you would put the past behind you and look at the Bible from a clear perspective. I don't go to any church, because I can't find one that doesn't demean the Bible, kowtow to "diversity" or doesn't declare who will or will not go to hell. I like gay people and I don't believe they are all going to hell. I like Jews and Muslims and I don't believe they are all going to hell. The Bible isn't always clear on who won't go to heaven, but I know that it says that those who closely follow Jesus will go to heaven. I hope that you won't allow whatever experiences you've had in the past to prevent you from having a relationship with Jesus in the future.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

This pretty much blows away any theories of those Christians who don't believe in Hell, or claim that Hell is only for Satan.

Here we have Luke attributing to Jesus a quote that clearly has God tossing humans into hell after they have died.

Personally I doubt that the man named Jesus ever said any such thing.

In fact when I read these kinds of verses in the Bible I'm inclined to believe with what Jeanniebean always use to say that these stories are indeed a total fabrication and there never was any Jesus to begin with.

Although, I do believe that there was a guy who was crucified who gave rise to these hearsay rumors. But the idea of a God who cast people into hell is utterly absurd, IMHO.

What GOOD would God obtain by casting people into a place of eternal suffering? What GOOD could this possibly do God?

Just think about that for a moment.

What GOOD would God get from knowing that people are suffering for eternity? God would need to be a sadist of some kind to actually enjoy such a thing.

If there's nothing in it for God, then why would a God bother doing it?

Clearly these are man-made fables that can't possibly have anything to do with any sort of supposed "all-wise" God.

There would be nothing "all-merciful" about a God who purposefully and knowingly casts people into a state of eternal suffering.

So these fables simply cannot be true. Because they claim that this God is a merciful, loving and wise God, but the rhetoric in these stories simply doesn't support that premise.

Therefore these fables are necessarily false.

There can be no doubt about it whatsoever.

To continue to support these fables as having some sort of merit is truly the epitome of futility. The so-called "God" in this fable would need to be the most unrighteous demon you can possibly imagine.

I would just like to ask what sense it makes to you that a creator would create souls to be judged on the naive and often highly uneducated lifespan of a human life (or often far less than a full lifetime), and based on that experience, potentially cast them into a hell of eternal suffering?

What would be in it for the God?

What sense would it make for a God to do such a thing?

And this is especially true in the case of non-believers. People who simply didn't believe that the Christian version of the Hebrew mythology should be considered to be actual "Word of God" over all other religious and spirituality of the world?

What sense does that make?



You tell Di, that her posts frequently contain "mistakes" and false assumptions about "Christianity". But what is "Christianity" but a belief in the biblical stories. That's all it truly can be.

Therefore what one person believes is "false" is simply another person's interpretation. In fact, this is precisely why there are so many denominations, and fragments of this religion.

You say yourself that you don't go to church because you disagree with their views. Well sheesh! I'm sure they disagree with yours too.

So who's right?

You seem to have taken some sort of stance that your views are right and everyone else is "wrong".

But why should that be the case? I'm sure that everyone feels that way. People certainly aren't going to believe like they do whilst simultaneously believing that they have it all "wrong".

So the bottom line is that these scriptures are clearly ambiguous to an extreme degree. The "God" you think you know, is different from the "God" the next Christian over believes in, etc.

If the Bible is that wide-open to personal interpretation then how can it be anything more than that?

That's all it can be.

Therefore to try to convince someone else that your interpretation has more merit than someone else's interpretation is truly foolish.

Don't you think?

Heaven and hell is something that just has to be taken by faith. I have faith that God knows what he's doing, even if I don't. If you look through the Bible, you can find evidence that hell is an eternal punishment or a final death. I think that maybe those who believe there is no life after death will find that is true...for them.



I am responsible to Jesus, not man. I don't have to be right in this life, so long as Jesus thinks I did right. I'm just encouraging Di and you and anyone else reading this to open the Bible and read about Jesus with an open mind and heart. Make up your own mind of if Jesus is real and if so what he expects of you. Maybe you'll agree with me, probably you won't.

My belief is this: In the end, each person is solely responsible for their own actions and accountable to Jesus. So if you read the scriptures and do the best you can to obey Gods commandments, then I think you'll probably be just fine even if your dogma doesn't match mine or Martin Luther's or the Pope's.

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Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

This pretty much blows away any theories of those Christians who don't believe in Hell, or claim that Hell is only for Satan.

Here we have Luke attributing to Jesus a quote that clearly has God tossing humans into hell after they have died
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Hell was not made for man. After judgement and those who didn't seak grace with our father will be cast into hell, BUT keep in mind hell is destroyed in the end of times as well. There will not be eternal punishment for our actions on earth. As i've said before we either receive the gift of heaven and eternal life or we cease to exist. Again, eternal life is a gift in rewards of our behaviour on earth.
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So these fables simply cannot be true. Because they claim that this God is a merciful, loving and wise God, but the rhetoric in these stories simply doesn't support that premise.
==============================

Our father is merciful, loving, and wise. That is why he has given us a way to clean ourselves of sin. Given us a way to receive forgiveness from our disobedience.

Here is partial listing of Jesus quoting from the Old testament.I could not copy and paste the bible quotes but they are there along with many more.


http://freespace.virgin.net/dick.worth/Quotes.htm



Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?"

This is the one about whom it is written: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'

You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honour your father and mother.'

Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up. ... If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?"

"It is written," he said to them, "'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'"

Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes'? He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfilment.'

Well, that's certainly a respectable position to take.

However, it seems a bit unreasonable to me to continually accuse people of not having read these stories simply because they have come to a different conclusion than you have arrived at.

In other words, I've already read the stories of Jesus, as well as the stories of the Old Testament, which IMHO, must be understood and believed before anyone can take anything in the New Testament seriously. After all, Jesus is supposed to be the demigod of the God of Abraham, so to accept Jesus without first believing in the God of Abraham would be a false acceptance. A person can't truly understand who they are supposedly accepting, and why.

So after having read and studies these stories, as well as other sources of human spiritual philosophies and religions I have indeed come to my conclusions about the Hebrew writings.

My conclusions are quite simply the following:

1. The Old Testament stories are simply unbelievable, IMHO.
2. The Old Testament stories do not reflect "wisdom", IMHO.

Therefore I'm already coming out of the Old Testament with the conclusion that the original God of Abraham is nothing more than superstitious folklore.

There's really no sense in me even moving forward to the New Testament. However, just out of fairness for the whole cannon I considered that as well.

My conclusions there are also quite simple.

1. I can't see where Jesus even agreed with the moral values taught in the Old Testament.
2. For someone who claims to have not come to change the laws one jot nor one tittle he sure made some major changes.
3. I personally feel that many of the claims made of Jesus in the New Testament are also outrageous, and unbelievable.
4. IMHO, they most certainly do contain many contradictions in their claims.
5. At best, I feel that if Jesus existed at all, he was probably attempting to convey the wisdom of Buddhism. I see not reason at all to trust the quote given to Jesus to be "verbatim" quotes. In fact I highly question whether Jesus ever said many of the things that the authors of the New Testament claim.
6. At worst, the whole thing is an entire made up scam and there never was any Jesus in the first place.

So these are my conclusions as a human being.

What I resent is when people tell me that I don't "understand" the story, or haven't given it an honest chance, or any other such thing. I read, and studied it, and I simply find it to be utterly unbelievable.

I also feel that it's important to share my conclusions with other humans. Especially when so many people are proselytizing and evangelizing these ancient stories to be the "Word of God".

In the face of this kind of constant religious propaganda I feel that it's just as "righteous" to share my conclusions with my fellow humans. After all, IMHO, these stories create religious bigotry that is clearly not healthy for society as a whole, IMHO.

This is especially true when many of the Abrahamic religions themselves are pointing fingers at each other and name-calling. Let allow the poor atheists, Wiccans, Buddhists, and everyone else who has to put up with the constant barrage of Christian proselytizing and Abrahamic religious bigotries.

So it's the constant proselytizing and evangelizing of this religion that make it 'fair-game' for my "book review".

My views and conclusions about the Bible are at least as valid as anyone else's.



Well, I bulk at your conclusion: "If you read the scriptures and do your best to obey God's commandments".

Because, as I've already stated, my conclusion is that these 'scriptures' are not the "Word" of any God, and therefore they do not represent "God's commandments".

Let's assume that you are correct on your first conclusion:

"In the end, each person is solely responsible for their own actions and accountable to Jesus."

Let's just assume that this is true. Let's assume that the Jesus truly is the Judge of the universe and he will indeed be passing judgment on me.

I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. Because if he truly is a righteous demigod (or God), then he will fully understand precisely WHY I did not not believe the "gospels".

The only righteous thing that Jesus could possibly do on any judgment day is apologize to me for allow "His Word" to be written into a book that contains countless legitimate reasons to not believe it.

There is absolutely no way that a truly righteous and wise God could "blame" me (or anyone) for not believing the biblical scriptures.

That very notion right there would an absurdity in and of itself.

You need to understand that I'm not "rejecting" these stories because I'm not interested in "obeying" this God. There's really nothing I would need to change about my own personal life to "obey" this God anyway.

I wouldn't need to "change my behavior" to satisfy the commandments of this God, save for perhaps the really stupid ones, like it's supposed to be a sin to not believe.

But that's precisely the kind of stupidity that ultimately convinces me that these fables can't be anything more than the works of men.

What kind of a God would make it a 'sin' to not believe in him. That doesn't even make any sense at all.

That very notion itself is just a BIG RED FLAG screaming out, "This religious dogma is the bigoted work of men who are trying to use an idea of a God to make people cower down to their authority".

That's precisely what this doctrine appears to be to me.

Well, that's your view. Not the Bible's view, IMHO.

What you say here doesn't make any sense, because the people wouldn't even be thrown into hell until the judgment day which would take place at the end times. Therefore, for Jesus to use this as thread claiming that it would be worst than what human enemies could do to you would be utterly silly.

You always talk about taking things "out of context". The gospels clearly have Jesus making this statement as a THREAT, and now you're trying to make it appear that it wouldn't be all that bad after all.

Nothing you ever say impresses me Cowboy.

These gospels were clearly attempting to use this as a threat in the name of "Jesus". Whether the actual man named Jesus ever made any such threats is anyone's guess.

In fact, whether there even existed a man named Jesus is anyone's guess.

All we know is that these hearsay rumors have claimed that Jesus said something like this.

==========================================
You always talk about taking things "out of context". The gospels clearly have Jesus making this statement as a THREAT, and now you're trying to make it appear that it wouldn't be all that bad after all.

Nothing you ever say impresses me Cowboy.
===========================================

LoL, the only thing that impresses me about you is the audacity you have. I take nothing out of context. Jesus threatens no one. Jesus merely was giving us knowledge of him and the father and giving us the result that comes of our disobedience. If you wish to take it as a threat so be it lol. And is why you don't see our father as loving. He's not "threatening" us. He's merely informing us of the consequences of such actions.

Well, like I continue to point out. We have no clue what Jesus might have said, assuming he existed at all.

All we have to go by are these hearsay rumors. These scriptures were known to have been written after Jesus had died. The very idea that they could contain verbatim quotes is a ludicrous idea in and of itself.

I see no reason at all to trust the writings of the authors of the New Testament.

This is another BIG RED FLAD

If a truly divine, all-wise being actually visited Earth with the intent of conveying a message to all of mankind, why leave it up to belated hearsay rumors written down after the God leaves?

That, in and of itself, brings much suspicion to the whole thing.

If an all-wise God had a message that he wanted to convey to mankind and he planned on coming to Earth in human form to convey it, then why not just write it down himself?

Leaving it to hearsay gossip would be utterly stupid, IMHO.

Therefore the very idea that these rumors are anything more than gossip is really an idea that no one should even bother to entertain.

Add to this, the absurdities of a God in the Old Testament that commands people not to kill, and then constantly turns around and has them killing other people left and right all through the stories.

That's an absurd God to begin with.

Add to this, the this God dealt with sin once by supposedly flooding out the whole planet, so now he has a change of heart in how he deals with sinning humans?

That's an absurdity.

This God teaches people to kill heathens where a heathen is defined as anyone who disagrees with his "WORD" and his "WORD" is the Old Testament. Then he sends his only begotten son into this same crowd to have his son disagree with his previous teachings?

That's an absurdity.

Now that his son is finally here, he leaves it entirely up to hearsay gossip to get his son's message out to all humanity?

That's an absurdity.

Where do the absurdities end?

How many absurdities do I need to believe in here?

And all for what?

So I can have FAITH that I have fallen from grace from my creator and I am being given an opportunity to be "saved" from a fate worse than death.

To me, all of this is so utterly absurd, that even if it were true, I seriously doubt that I would want to have anything to do with this God. He's far too absurd.

Death sounds like the better option to be perfectly blunt about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c9U7nL_v6Q&feature=related